Gone With or Without fanfare

[Western Guy]

What a great story, Moira. Sadly tragic, too. Not really related to the topic at hand, but was not 1975 the year when the so-called "curse of the Hollywood 3's" came into effect? Gosh, I remember March and I believe Richard Conte and for the life of me cannot recall the third celebrity death of that period, but it seemed to begin a morbid trend.

[moira finnie]

I know how you feel, Stone. This last year as many people associated with film passed away, it occurred to me more than once that we have had the privilege of the company of so many creative people for a much longer time than previous generations. When men like March, Conte or a Robert Ryan were born (Ryan died too young in 1973), the average span a man could expect to live was between 40 and 47 years. We have come a long way in such a short time. And thank goodness we have film to enjoy their vicarious company and insights into the human condition again and again.

BTW, I have posted this elsewhere on this board, but you might enjoy this recording of an older Fredric March and Florence Eldridge discussing experiences (and correcting one another) that was made by an NPR station in Connecticut. I keep hoping that they will post the entire tape (even if they did misspell his first name):

http://www.cpbn.org/article/connecticut-basement-tapes-project-frederic-march

[Western Guy]

Mucho thanks for the link, Moira. Gonna pour myself a glass of beer this evening and indulge myself in this great history. Either that or submit myself to - ugh! - Shark's Tank.

Robert Ryan passed away from lung cancer. Mickey Knox told me that as long as he knew Ryan, physically he was one of the toughest guys he knew, but that damn addiction to tobacco eventually took its toll. Likewise Mitchum who, living to the last with his "I don't give a damn" attitude, smoked away his final night on earth. Then there's Burt and Dino and, well, just so many others. Suppose the best we can say in their memory is that these were people who lived lives on their own terms. In a weird way, we gotta respect them. They did certainly live up to their images.

[charliechaplinfan]

I didn't mean to suggest that Fredric March was ever successful with his various costars but he didn't seem to vary his behaviour with his co stars, perhaps Veronica Lake. There's no doubt that he was commited to Florence but she must have been saintly to forgive his errant behaviour, she knew his foibles and decided to live with them, even if they rankled even after the fact. And you are right about his best roles, they were married men often of an every man variety, they're my favourite roles too.

I hadn't realised that Robert Ryan had died so young, tobacco again. At least these days we know about the dangers.

[JackFavell]

Alison, I've always gotten the idea that March was a grabber and a pincher, but not a fooler arounder if you know what I mean. Maybe I'm wrong? There are always going to be deluded men who think a pinch or a grapple is flattering to a woman (ugh), and not necessarily an approach to have a full on affair. In fact they would probably back off from the deed were it offered. I'm sorry to put it bluntly, but I think that maybe these types think a pretty woman is an entitlement to a quick feel and everyone is happy. Was this like March? He could have thought he was simply distributing happiness to all those co-stars, that this is just what you do on a film set. Play romantic with the leading lady and then it's over and you move on and go back to being a happy family man. Maybe when he was younger it might even have been expected - leading man, older actress.

[Western Guy]

Well, as I see it, knowing that Miss Eldridge herself was an actress, she may simply have turned her head the other way knowing that flings between co-stars may just be hazards of the business. I don't feel that Freddie's offscreen flirtations amounted to anything more than just that. June Travis admitted to having a huge crush on Jimmy Cagney during the filming of CEILING ZERO and confessed disappointment that he never even gave her a second look - and June was a honey. Guys like Jimmy just never gave in to temptation because they were so devoted to their wives. The story goes that happily married Charles Boyer did surrender to Merle Oberon's advances when onboard the train for the Hollywood Victory Caravan during WW2, but that had to be a total one-night stand given his utter love for wife Pat. Happily married Ray Milland had his dalliances (one of which cost him his friendship with John Wayne) yet when he wrote his autobiography, he ignored such interludes and dedicated the book with a lovely reference to his wife. Cannot recall exactly, but along the lines of he married an angel.

Gosh, it must be difficult for an actor or actress not to occasionally "stray" unless you can surround yourself with a ring of steel.

[knitwit45]

I really have to disagree on this one..
Actors and actresses are first and most importantly, PEOPLE. Just like you and me. They work, marry,raise families. Why shouldn't they live by the same rules as the rest of us? Does money or fame exempt someone from being honorable?

Stepping down from soapbox now.

[moira finnie]

I really have to disagree on this one..
Actors and actresses are first and most importantly, PEOPLE. Just like you and me. They work, marry,raise families. Why shouldn't they live by the same rules as the rest of us? Does money or fame exempt someone from being honorable?

Stepping down from soapbox now.

I know what you mean, Nan, but, I often think that I am presumptuous to expect people to feel as I do. Just as we all live in different places, and come from different backgrounds, we also don't always follow the same life path or share the exact same values or insights.

Please excuse me for injecting a personal observation, but I know from experience that many men make passes on impulse--not really design--all the time, especially when they are under forty. After that, they may slow down a bit naturally, but they also start to have more compassion for the girls and women involved (esp. if they have a daughter themselves). For whatever reason, it seems that Nature made us adventurers, nurturers, fools, and deeply loving contradictions, often simultaneously.

[Western Guy]

Well, my argument would be that in most cases these people live in situations foreign to folks such as us. The average person goes to work in an average work setting each day and performs mundane office or workplace duties. A Hollywood actor/actress goes to work in glamorous settings (well, back in the old days, mostly) and often is required to perform love scenes against often fetching co-stars. No, these performers are not anything what we are, nor should we consider celebrities as such. People, yes. But existing in a different realm where temptation could definitely affect the rules of what we perceive as family stability. Not that they did not exist: Cagney, Pat O`Brien, Dana Andrews and certainly others. But then there are the Bill Holdens, Glenn Fords and others to whom temptation ran rampant.

I personally can tell a story regarding a top Hollywood celebrity (formerly married, recently separated) who when he appeared to do a movie in Winnipeg hit big-time on my stepdaughter. Came across as a nice guy but was another big shot Hollywood player.

BTW: Opinions appreciated. Just a lively discussion.

[knitwit45]

Thanks, Stone.
I have worked for most of my adult life in offices..doing that mundane work you mention. I have seen a lot of flirtations attempted, and some accomplished. The thing is, we all have the power to say yes, or to say no. Sure, it isn't the glamour of Hollywood, but for a lot of us, it does represent excitement, and even danger. Still doesn't mean you have to say yes. (Can't you hear your mother saying "and I suppose if someone asked you to jump off a bridge, you would??")

[mrsl]

.
Never a true, die hard fan, I liked Larry depending on who his guest of the night was. I know now one reason I kind of liked him which I learned just today when I read his obit, is that he wrote a story about the closing of a well known bordello in Texas, which is one of my favorite musicals starring Burt Reynolds and Dolly - The Best Little Whorehouse in Texas. Personally, I still feel this is one of the last true musicals made, in that the songs continue the dialog rather than just music that is thrown in for the heck of it (e.g. Elvis movies).

Larry earned my respect by continuing to dig in even after he retired from his nightly show by appearing as a guest on most of the daily and nightly talk shows. Unlike many other celebrities of his age, his mental capacity was alert and enabled him to engage in interesting conversations. I freely admit I cannot discuss a lot of subjects intelligently because even if I read up on them, my memory is such that I don't always absorb what I read, so I often keep out of discussions that are about things that are not necessarily my favorite subjects. My T.V. time now with so much going on is split between the old west on Encore and MSNBC. I really like many of the hosts such as Rachel Maddow, and Chris Matthews on MSNBC especially I must admit, since they are Democratic party bent.

Rest in Peace, Mr. Larry King.
.

[Western Guy]

Fortunately, to quote Mark Twain (sorta): The reports of Larry King's death have been greatly exaggerated. A Larry King did indeed pass over, but it was Larry L. King, playwright. Here's the link to the mixup:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/2 ... 48216.html

[moira finnie]

(Can't you hear your mother saying "and I suppose if someone asked you to jump off a bridge, you would??")

Oh, yes. Every day, those words ring in my ears. But Mom....!!! is usually the lame answer.

[RedRiver]

these were people who lived lives on their own terms.

As long as we make conscious decisions and consider the consequences. With me, it's food. I should eat less meat, less salt. I eat whatever tastes good. If I suffer from that choice in the years to come, well, at least I enjoyed the journey.

I like that we now say Robert Ryan died young. In 1973, that didn't occur to me. I was 18!

[charliechaplinfan]

I've worked in a bank and when they held the Christmas party in the premises when I was 16 it was a real eye opener for me, not only could you not go into the offices you couldn't use the lavatories either, thankfully the less inclined to play around sheltered the younger ones from walking in on it, this behaviour carried on all through my career, especially when I was in a male dominated corporate team, if things were a bad enough during the working day, comments etc, despite all of us being married, nights out when drinks were a plenty were difficult to negogiate. Not all us were strayers, I never did but it was certainly accepted to try and get the females as drunk as you could to ease your chances. But I digress, I just think it's life, there are strayers out there, in all walks of life but it's bound to be enhanced in Hollywood and the glamour and insecurites that come with fame, I can understand their indiscretions. What I really admire are the ones who manage to keep their marriages together, especially if one of them has strayed, it takes a lot on the betrayed parties behalf to forgive if not forget. I don't know about Fredric March, despite all his pinching I've never heard of an affair. I'd never heard of Boyer having an affair, even a one nighter, so devoted to Pat was he but Merle was someone lovely to behold.