What constitutes Noir?

[myrnaloyisdope]

So what constitutes Film Noir for you?

I was just thinking about how Hitchcock's films never get classified as Film Noir(despite some very noirish elements), and that got me to thinking about what Film-Noir really means? Is it a style, or is it a time-frame, or a mindset or is it something else?

For me the first Noir film is Fritz Lang's M, it's dark, mysterious, and generally unpleasant. It's also very compelling. It has all the elements of Film Noir except for the Femme Fatale, but otherwise looks and feels like Noir.

So what is Noir to you?

[ChiO]

Okay, Dewey and Mr. Ark, how long do I have to wait for you to post so I can type: Yeah, I agree?

[Dewey1960]

Okay, how's this:
1. Expressionistic visual design (not mandatory but certainly recommended)
2. Themes involving fatalism, pessimism, nihilism, sexual perversions, non-sexual perversions, crime, punishment, obsessive behavior, fetishism, alcoholism, drug dependency, amnesia, suicide, etc. (some more mandatory than others)
3. Black and White photography (1940 - 1960: practically a given; 1961 - present: strictly optional)
4. Multiple fatalities (optional, but the more the merrier)
5. Femme Fatale-ism (optional but always a delight)
6. An unhappy ending (mandatory)
This is just for starters. I'm sure there are others here who could amplify this with more details. Good luck!

[Mr. Arkadin]

Okay, how's this:
1. Expressionistic visual design (not mandatory but certainly recommended)
2. Themes involving fatalism, pessimism, nihilism, sexual perversions, non-sexual perversions, crime, punishment, obsessive behavior, fetishism, alcoholism, drug dependency, amnesia, suicide, etc. (some more mandatory than others)
3. Black and White photography (1940 - 1960: practically a given; 1961 - present: strictly optional)
4. Multiple fatalities (optional, but the more the merrier)
5. Femme Fatale-ism (optional but always a delight)
6. An unhappy ending (mandatory)
This is just for starters. I'm sure there are others here who could amplify this with more details. Good luck!

Yeah, I agree.









JUST KIDDING!

Probably the best way to answer your question is a tactic employed by most gumshoes in these films--legwork. Take a look at the original lists that constituted the film noir contest:

http://silverscreenoasis.com/oasis/viewtopic.php?t=2106

Make it your business to investigate the works that you are unfamilar with. Dewey's and ChiO's lists are very good representations of the classic era. ChiO slips in a neo-noir with The Friends of Eddie Coyle, but we'll let him off for that one. Adding Night of the Hunter however, was a definite no no!

The more films you see, the more you'll be able to form your own opinions about what noir is. The great things about these contests is they expose us to new films and broaden our collective knowledge. I like to think everyone here has an area of expertise in a certain genre or style. The lists and accompanying comments contain a great deal of information if you're willing to do a little homework (don't forget the comments in the head to head contests as well). And it's free! In Professor Dewey's case, you'd have to sit in on his lectures (and probably pay a good chunk of change) to glean these nuggets. One other thing, the search engine is your best friend here. Use it wisely and thou shalt be rewarded!

[jdb1]

I would add that for me, a really good Noir is one that takes you on a metaphorical quest through Hell; and there is at least one character, either the protagonist or another, who has a really bad case of paranoia, which is generally well-justified. There should be at least one sadist, whose perversion can be either physically or psychologically manifested.

Oh, and another given should be that things and people are rarely what they appear to be, such that no one, not even the main character, can be trusted by the audience.

[ChiO]

I would add a corollary to Prof. Dewey's list: It helps if the director is an outsider, whether an emigre (e.g., Lang, Siodmak, Wilder, Ulmer) or one with an extremely strong streak of independence (e.g., Welles, Fuller, Cassavetes, Ulmer again) or one exiled to the B-unit of a studio or Poverty Row (e.g., Ulmer yet again). As Anne notes, at least one of the characters in a noir is an outsider, and it seems to me that outsider directors better capture the spirit of such characters.

myrnaloyisdope said:

I was just thinking about how Hitchcock's films never get classified as Film Noir(despite some very noirish elements)....

Actually, I have often seen SHADOW OF A DOUBT and STRANGERS ON A TRAIN on film noir lists, and I can't argue with that, but his films certainly are not the first to come to my mind when I think of film noir. Hitchcock always seems to be a special case and, for good or for ill, seems to have become his own genre.

myrnaloyisdope also said:

For me the first Noir film is Fritz Lang's M, it's dark, mysterious, and generally unpleasant. It's also very compelling. It has all the elements of Film Noir except for the Femme Fatale, but otherwise looks and feels like Noir.

I'm pretty conventional, I guess, because I'm willing to go with the flow and call STRANGER ON THE THIRD FLOOR the first. Why? Mostly a matter of convenience. Are M and YOU ONLY LIVE ONCE films noir? No argument here, but where does one stop? Next thing you know you're listing THE CABINET OF DR. CALIGARI as the first noir.

[MikeBSG]

Actually, I've seen "Broken Blossoms" listed as the first film noir. (In the Raymond Durgnat essay "Paint it Black, the Family Tree of Film Noir." He also considered "2001 a Space Odyssey" a film noir.)

Defining film noir is always the least enjoyable part about reading about film noir. One extreme says that noir is a style and the other extreme says noir is a mood (which is where Durgnat was coming from. He considered noir to be a pessimistic strain in Hollywood cinema.) and most commentators end up weaving between the two poles.

[Dewey1960]

The classic film noir period is book-ended in time by the eruption of World War II (STRANGER ON THE 3rd FLOOR, I WAKE UP SCREAMING, BLUES IN THE NIGHT) and the full-blown arrival of the Cold War (CITY OF FEAR, THE CRIMSON KIMONO, BLAST OF SILENCE). In between we get the Bomb, post-war meltdown, McCarthyism, Communism, Korea, television, Mickey Spillane, rock & roll, a recession and, as a direct result films that reflect the mounting fears and utter hopelessness of a world pre-occupied with death and destruction. Factor in ongoing class warfare and racial divide and you have a nation deep in the grip of cynicism, anger, frustration and fear. Recipe for noir?

[Dewey1960]

Or maybe it's just this:
[youtube][/youtube]

[ChiO]

Excellent!

Why were two clips from that non-noir THE NIGHT OF THE HUNTER included?

And what was that movie at the end? It looked r-e-a-l-l-y good.

[Dewey1960]

That clip was put up there with you in mind, my friend!

[Mr. Arkadin]

Excellent!

Why were two clips from that non-noir THE NIGHT OF THE HUNTER included?

Obviously needed to pad the songs running time.

[ChiO]

Well, then, right backatcha.

There are no, uh, references here to, uh, phallic symbols.

[youtube][/youtube]

I apologize, Mr. Ark., for FORCE OF EVIL not be included.

[Mr. Arkadin]

I apologize, Mr. Ark., for FORCE OF EVIL not be included.

I'm used to it. At least I won't ever have to discuss why FOE is the most overrated film noir.

[ChiO]

Oh, what the heck. I'll resurrect this. Someday...generations from now...someone will ask, "Didn't those oldsters talk about the contours of noir?" and...foolish children that they are, they will not think to look at the "BOGART NOIR on TCM 8/17" thread. Idiots!