Mr. A:
Perhaps you've hit on my unending dislike of Citizen Kane. I would never find any kind of pleasure in approving anyone or anything that was a total example of greed and avarice. My thanks to you. I've never understood my total dislike when everyone else had such good things to say. I think you've uncovered the reason that I always felt, but could never put a finger on.
Anne
How Green Was My Valley
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Mr. Arkadin
- Posts: 2645
- Joined: April 14th, 2007, 3:00 pm
Anne,
Although I think there are many negative elements to Kane, some of these points were beyond his control. I don't really find Kane greedy. Rather, he is an example of impoverished love. Huw, grew up with a loving family and a father who taught him about life. Charlie Kane's father was abusive and his mother a clinging, dominating woman who sent him away as a child to be raised by Thatcher, who was more interested in Charles investments than Charles Foster Kane the person. Kane is raised with the best of everything but lacking the ingredient of love. Huw is materially poor, but rich in affection. Both of these films track different styles of life, but they both deal with family love and it's
nurturing properties. While Huw becomes a man, Kane recedes into childishness.
It's the globe with Rosebud inside (which is actually seen more than once earlier in the film) that finally brings him full circle. He finally comes to realize his nature and how it was formed. Unfortunately like Rosebud trapped in the globe, Kane, now an old man, is helpless and unable to change his life (he tries with Susan before she leaves) because he doesn't have Huw's perspective.
When Thompson the reporter says: "All the same I can't help feeling sorry for Mr. Kane." Susan speaks for all of us when she replies " Don't you think I do?"
Although I think there are many negative elements to Kane, some of these points were beyond his control. I don't really find Kane greedy. Rather, he is an example of impoverished love. Huw, grew up with a loving family and a father who taught him about life. Charlie Kane's father was abusive and his mother a clinging, dominating woman who sent him away as a child to be raised by Thatcher, who was more interested in Charles investments than Charles Foster Kane the person. Kane is raised with the best of everything but lacking the ingredient of love. Huw is materially poor, but rich in affection. Both of these films track different styles of life, but they both deal with family love and it's
nurturing properties. While Huw becomes a man, Kane recedes into childishness.
It's the globe with Rosebud inside (which is actually seen more than once earlier in the film) that finally brings him full circle. He finally comes to realize his nature and how it was formed. Unfortunately like Rosebud trapped in the globe, Kane, now an old man, is helpless and unable to change his life (he tries with Susan before she leaves) because he doesn't have Huw's perspective.
When Thompson the reporter says: "All the same I can't help feeling sorry for Mr. Kane." Susan speaks for all of us when she replies " Don't you think I do?"
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jdb1
Good points, Mr. A.
Also, Anne and Mr. A, I don't think Welles leads us into either feeling sorry for Kane or reviling him, but allows us to draw our own conclusions about him. It's a kind of forerunner of cinema verite, which is one of its aspects of greatness.
The movie is an excellent example of journalistic fiction, the kind that Truman Capote was aiming for, with his "non-fiction novel," in In Cold Blood. I think, actually, that one of the closets examples of this style we have now is to be found in the movie Grey Gardens. What is the Latin phrase --- res ipse loquitur -- the thing speaks for itself.
Also, Anne and Mr. A, I don't think Welles leads us into either feeling sorry for Kane or reviling him, but allows us to draw our own conclusions about him. It's a kind of forerunner of cinema verite, which is one of its aspects of greatness.
The movie is an excellent example of journalistic fiction, the kind that Truman Capote was aiming for, with his "non-fiction novel," in In Cold Blood. I think, actually, that one of the closets examples of this style we have now is to be found in the movie Grey Gardens. What is the Latin phrase --- res ipse loquitur -- the thing speaks for itself.
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Mr. Arkadin
- Posts: 2645
- Joined: April 14th, 2007, 3:00 pm
Very true. Here's some things I posted on Kane at TCM awhile back:jdb1 wrote:Good points, Mr. A.
Also, Anne and Mr. A, I don't think Welles leads us into either feeling sorry for Kane or reviling him, but allows us to draw our own conclusions about him. It's a kind of forerunner of cinema verite, which is one of its aspects of greatness.
The movie is an excellent example of journalistic fiction, the kind that Truman Capote was aiming for, with his "non-fiction novel," in In Cold Blood. I think, actually, that one of the closets examples of this style we have now is to be found in the movie Grey Gardens. What is the Latin phrase --- res ipse loquitur -- the thing speaks for itself.
I personally love Kane, but I can understand why some people don't care for it. One thing about the film that is very off putting to viewers is the fact that the first couple of scenes are designed to take us out of our comfort zone. We are hit with three different scenes at the start of the film in a whirlwind fashion, all dealing with a man we have no knowledge or background of.
When Thompson the reporter goes calling, we never see his face. We also never meet Kane in real life. We are left with only memories from others who hold their own biased views of what he was like. In short, we are given NO ONE with which to identify. It's up to us to put the puzzle together each time we watch and decide just who Charles Foster Kane is.
This is the power of the film for those who love it and the weakness for those who do not. Kane is a film that demands much from us. Our active participation and reasoning are required to make the film work.
Depending on insights or the mood in which we see the film, Kane can become all kinds of different things to different viewers. Some see him as a spoiled child, some as a master manipulator, others as a pitiful man who never received love, or perhaps how his wealth isolated him from love. Some see him as all these things, others see him as none of them. Kane is an open ended book that requires US to fill in the final pages with our own experiences and emotional baggage. This is not a film for passive viewing. It's also not a one-watch film. Every time we see Kane we find something different about him and discover something also about ourselves.
Although the film has humor and is enjoyable, it's hard on viewers who are not willing to participate in it's game. So many see this as half a film and in a sense they are right--it's what we bring to the film that completes it and makes it personal to us. This is one of the reasons why it's considered one of the greatest films ever made.
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MissGoddess
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- Joined: April 17th, 2007, 10:01 am
- Contact:
Hi I wanted to bump this thread up after watching the film the other night.
I'm not sure about posting the screencaps here. If it is too much please let me know. I don't want to break any rules.
Anyway here goes.
Well I had never seen this before and it was a very moving experience. I don't know what was wrong with me last night but from the opening narration, where Huw talks about his relationship with his father, my eyes started welling up.. Maybe it brought out memories of my own father, or an idealized picture of what a father and son relationship should be. I don't know, but the film struck a very emotional chord with me.
The whole opening scene, with the talk of the past and how people long gone seemed so alive in his mind was very touching.
The film was beautifully photographed and the shots were so well framed. Robert Osborne's introduction (I had recorded it from TCM a long time ago) said it was filmed on the Fox back lot in what is now Century City. I find that incredible. I thought it really had the feel of a Welsh mining village of long ago. The film was just visually stunning.
The theme of family was front and center. Donald Crisp and Sara Allgood were wonderful in their parental roles. I liked how Crisp was so calm as patriarch, even when his sons went against his wishes. The whole family had a quiet unspoken ritual of mutual respect it seemed.
Allgood was very vivid in her role as the mother . I really loved the scene where she comes downstairs after being bedridden and finally sees Huw again. The expectant smile on her face was so real. The moment of reunion between the two of them had me welling up again.
I was really taken with young Roddy McDowall's performance. His face was so expressive. He did a good job observing life and the people around him.
The female characters were very strong willed. I really liked Bronwyn. She was so kind. She took right to the whole family and stepped in to her role so well. Anna Lee did a great job here. O'Hara was so very beautiful.
I liked the relationship between Gruffydd and Huw very much. The relationship between Gruffydd and Angharad? Well I will just say I was more moved by Angharad's plight for some reason. I'm not really sure why yet.
One of the things I liked was how every once in awhile one of the characters, whether it be Gruffydd or Angharad to the flock, or Mrs. Morgan to the miners, would just call them on their hypocrisy or idiotic behavior. I liked the scene were Mrs. Morgan goes to the meeting of the miners and threatens them. She was a feisty lady.
It was interesting to me how the townspeople would come together in tragedy or celebration at times and at other times they resulted to nasty or even ruthless behavior. The scene were the lady is cast out of Church for example. I love how Angharad confronts Gruffydd about that. Telling him in her fiery way that the Bible says go and sin no more. While Gruffydd does call out his flock in the climatic showdown. I ,like Angharad, was left wondering why he was so silent in this case.
I think there was a lot of ritual in this film. Not only in the Church and the weddings but it permeates through all things. The relationship between parent and child for instance seems established through time. These children would never act otherwise or else it would be like going against all they knew about how one was to act. It was something carried from generation to generation. There was ritual in courting, ritual in death, ritual in singing but there was also ritual in the men simply going off to work and coming back home everyday and in the way they ate their meals.
The love of the parents toward the children never seemed rigid though. Mr. Morgan was stern but he also showed great feeling and would let himself laugh and see the humor in situations. His interactions with his wife were just wonderful. The way he cared for her. You could just tell in his face. I loved the scene were he gets exacerbated with her while Huw is studying. She goes on about a tub full of holes. She is a silly and impulsive women in some ways but very humane. The way she worries about Bronwyn and the way she doesn't like Huw fighting. keep it up and he'll walk home dead. She is a wonderful character. One of the great "film mothers" to me.
I just love that scene where they give the schoolmaster boxing lessons! That had me cheering. What a mean old so and so he was! The music was an integral part of this film and the images, so many great shots. I noticed those doorway shots. I always think of John Ford when I see those.
The film got to me on an emotional level. I very seldom get teary eyed about a film. There was just something about this one. The characters, the sense of loss of home, of place, and of past. How it always remains alive in your heart for you to revisit. Ford seems to have a way with this sort of thing. A very beautiful film.
I'm not sure about posting the screencaps here. If it is too much please let me know. I don't want to break any rules.
Anyway here goes.
Well I had never seen this before and it was a very moving experience. I don't know what was wrong with me last night but from the opening narration, where Huw talks about his relationship with his father, my eyes started welling up.. Maybe it brought out memories of my own father, or an idealized picture of what a father and son relationship should be. I don't know, but the film struck a very emotional chord with me.
The whole opening scene, with the talk of the past and how people long gone seemed so alive in his mind was very touching.
The film was beautifully photographed and the shots were so well framed. Robert Osborne's introduction (I had recorded it from TCM a long time ago) said it was filmed on the Fox back lot in what is now Century City. I find that incredible. I thought it really had the feel of a Welsh mining village of long ago. The film was just visually stunning.
The theme of family was front and center. Donald Crisp and Sara Allgood were wonderful in their parental roles. I liked how Crisp was so calm as patriarch, even when his sons went against his wishes. The whole family had a quiet unspoken ritual of mutual respect it seemed.
Allgood was very vivid in her role as the mother . I really loved the scene where she comes downstairs after being bedridden and finally sees Huw again. The expectant smile on her face was so real. The moment of reunion between the two of them had me welling up again.
I was really taken with young Roddy McDowall's performance. His face was so expressive. He did a good job observing life and the people around him.
The female characters were very strong willed. I really liked Bronwyn. She was so kind. She took right to the whole family and stepped in to her role so well. Anna Lee did a great job here. O'Hara was so very beautiful.
I liked the relationship between Gruffydd and Huw very much. The relationship between Gruffydd and Angharad? Well I will just say I was more moved by Angharad's plight for some reason. I'm not really sure why yet.
One of the things I liked was how every once in awhile one of the characters, whether it be Gruffydd or Angharad to the flock, or Mrs. Morgan to the miners, would just call them on their hypocrisy or idiotic behavior. I liked the scene were Mrs. Morgan goes to the meeting of the miners and threatens them. She was a feisty lady.
It was interesting to me how the townspeople would come together in tragedy or celebration at times and at other times they resulted to nasty or even ruthless behavior. The scene were the lady is cast out of Church for example. I love how Angharad confronts Gruffydd about that. Telling him in her fiery way that the Bible says go and sin no more. While Gruffydd does call out his flock in the climatic showdown. I ,like Angharad, was left wondering why he was so silent in this case.
I think there was a lot of ritual in this film. Not only in the Church and the weddings but it permeates through all things. The relationship between parent and child for instance seems established through time. These children would never act otherwise or else it would be like going against all they knew about how one was to act. It was something carried from generation to generation. There was ritual in courting, ritual in death, ritual in singing but there was also ritual in the men simply going off to work and coming back home everyday and in the way they ate their meals.
The love of the parents toward the children never seemed rigid though. Mr. Morgan was stern but he also showed great feeling and would let himself laugh and see the humor in situations. His interactions with his wife were just wonderful. The way he cared for her. You could just tell in his face. I loved the scene were he gets exacerbated with her while Huw is studying. She goes on about a tub full of holes. She is a silly and impulsive women in some ways but very humane. The way she worries about Bronwyn and the way she doesn't like Huw fighting. keep it up and he'll walk home dead. She is a wonderful character. One of the great "film mothers" to me.
I just love that scene where they give the schoolmaster boxing lessons! That had me cheering. What a mean old so and so he was! The music was an integral part of this film and the images, so many great shots. I noticed those doorway shots. I always think of John Ford when I see those.
The film got to me on an emotional level. I very seldom get teary eyed about a film. There was just something about this one. The characters, the sense of loss of home, of place, and of past. How it always remains alive in your heart for you to revisit. Ford seems to have a way with this sort of thing. A very beautiful film.
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MissGoddess
- Posts: 5072
- Joined: April 17th, 2007, 10:01 am
- Contact:
Larry, I'm so glad you copied your post over here,
it is simply too good not to share with everyone.
I'm so pleased you saw just what I do in
Sarah Allgood's remarkable characterization. How I
love "Mrs Morgan"! And how I wish to be more like
her---so loving and beloved, so strong and FIERCE in
her family loyalty. She's a "pure" soul, no mixed
motives or hedging about her. I think it's one of
the best performances by an actress ever.
And you have taken to screencaps like a house on
fire, Mister! You have a wonderful faculty
for choosing just the right image that evokes a
strong emotion. Good for you; I look forward to
future "illustrated" rambles from you, sir.
Your admirer,
Pappy's Girl
(April, aka MissG)
it is simply too good not to share with everyone.
I'm so pleased you saw just what I do in
Sarah Allgood's remarkable characterization. How I
love "Mrs Morgan"! And how I wish to be more like
her---so loving and beloved, so strong and FIERCE in
her family loyalty. She's a "pure" soul, no mixed
motives or hedging about her. I think it's one of
the best performances by an actress ever.
And you have taken to screencaps like a house on
fire, Mister! You have a wonderful faculty
for choosing just the right image that evokes a
strong emotion. Good for you; I look forward to
future "illustrated" rambles from you, sir.
Your admirer,
Pappy's Girl
(April, aka MissG)
"There's only one thing that can kill the movies, and that's education."
-- Will Rogers
-- Will Rogers
Hi April,
Thanks for your wonderful comments. I realize I'm a little late to this discussion but better late than never I guess.
Mrs. Morgan is my favorite character in a film filled with many memorable characters. There is just something about her performance that really touched me. There are a lot of little things she does that just strike a true note. I mentioned her coming down the stairs aided by her husband, Bronwyn and Angharad. The changing expressions on her face and the smile that keeps coming into focus as she antipates her reunion with Huw were wonderful.
Arkadin I thought your comments comparing HGWMV to Citizen Kane were very insightful.
Moira I didn't know this was your favorite film! A lovely choice. If you care too, you might want to check out FrankGrimes views on Gruffydd over at TCM. There is a discussion of the film currently going on in the rambles thread in the F&F forum. I thought he had some interesting things to say about him. Gruffydd is a character I really want to take a second look at the next time I watch the film.
Well, late as I am to the discussion, I really enjoyed reading everyone's thoughts on the film. It was very interesting and informative.
Thanks for your wonderful comments. I realize I'm a little late to this discussion but better late than never I guess.
Mrs. Morgan is my favorite character in a film filled with many memorable characters. There is just something about her performance that really touched me. There are a lot of little things she does that just strike a true note. I mentioned her coming down the stairs aided by her husband, Bronwyn and Angharad. The changing expressions on her face and the smile that keeps coming into focus as she antipates her reunion with Huw were wonderful.
Arkadin I thought your comments comparing HGWMV to Citizen Kane were very insightful.
Moira I didn't know this was your favorite film! A lovely choice. If you care too, you might want to check out FrankGrimes views on Gruffydd over at TCM. There is a discussion of the film currently going on in the rambles thread in the F&F forum. I thought he had some interesting things to say about him. Gruffydd is a character I really want to take a second look at the next time I watch the film.
Well, late as I am to the discussion, I really enjoyed reading everyone's thoughts on the film. It was very interesting and informative.
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MissGoddess
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- Joined: April 17th, 2007, 10:01 am
- Contact:
It's never too late, Molo. 
If things ever "get normal" back at TCM, I'll be joining a few discussions quite late.
I loved what you wrote about Beth and her expressions---and about
Angharad. That feeling you described, that feeling that carried them
through, I guess you really have to experience being a part of a family to
know what that is. I never really have, so it's something wonderfully
exotic for me to contemplate. I think that's why I am drawn so much to
films that focus on families. They are pure "exotica" for me. That is why
I always say about Ford films: "He takes me to the places I want to
go."
I loved FrankGrimes' analysis of Gruffydd---I admit that I have changed
thinking about him (Gruffydd, not Grimes
) after reading it. His
character is MUCH more complex and more deeply etched than I first
thought.
Always a pleasure chatting with you.
If things ever "get normal" back at TCM, I'll be joining a few discussions quite late.I loved what you wrote about Beth and her expressions---and about
Angharad. That feeling you described, that feeling that carried them
through, I guess you really have to experience being a part of a family to
know what that is. I never really have, so it's something wonderfully
exotic for me to contemplate. I think that's why I am drawn so much to
films that focus on families. They are pure "exotica" for me. That is why
I always say about Ford films: "He takes me to the places I want to
go."
I loved FrankGrimes' analysis of Gruffydd---I admit that I have changed
thinking about him (Gruffydd, not Grimes
) after reading it. Hischaracter is MUCH more complex and more deeply etched than I first
thought.
Always a pleasure chatting with you.
"There's only one thing that can kill the movies, and that's education."
-- Will Rogers
-- Will Rogers
-
klondike
I've put-off commenting up til now upon this very fine film, which I do love with a fiercely Celtic passion, for one reason only.
Sara Allgood's portrayal of Beth Morgan reminds me so forcefully of my own long-departed Mother that merely the thought of this character puts a lump the size of a child's fist in my throat, and leaves my eyes wet & burning.
Like Beth Morgan, my Mum was a woman of patience and insight and great, deep humor, and a vast capacity for work & faith, who'd hoist King or Pope by the throat in a heartbeat should she feel a child o' hers threatened.
So, there ya go . . and I apologize as I can say no more.
Sara Allgood's portrayal of Beth Morgan reminds me so forcefully of my own long-departed Mother that merely the thought of this character puts a lump the size of a child's fist in my throat, and leaves my eyes wet & burning.
Like Beth Morgan, my Mum was a woman of patience and insight and great, deep humor, and a vast capacity for work & faith, who'd hoist King or Pope by the throat in a heartbeat should she feel a child o' hers threatened.
So, there ya go . . and I apologize as I can say no more.
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Mr. Arkadin
- Posts: 2645
- Joined: April 14th, 2007, 3:00 pm
Hi Molo, glad to see you here again. I enjoyed reading (and looking at) your views of How Green Was My Valley as well. It's a great film with lots of depth, but unlike Kane, it's also very accessible. As a result, it's often dismissed as just another drama by many critics. One writer who has a good grasp of the film is Tag Gallager.