Questions for Ken Winokur

[movieman1957]

Thanks. This is quite fascinating.

[Ken Winokur]

While I have a minute, let me talk a little about a score that I haven't mentioned, and practically nobody's ever heard.

Last year we were asked to do a program of DADA shorts for the DADA retrospective at the National Gallery of Arts. The programmers decided to split the movie section into two days, so pianist (and historian) Martin Marks did half the films and Alloy did the other half.

There aren't really enough DADA films in existance to do two full length shows, so we filled out the show with some different (but related) works. Our show included:

Anemic Cinema - Marcel Duchamp
Symphonie Diagonal - Viking Eggeling
Rythmus 21 - Hans Richter
Film Studie - Hans Richter
Ballet Mechanique - Murphy, Leger, Ray
Ghosts Before Breakfast - Hans Richter
Thieving Hand - Edwin Porter
Dreams/Rarebit, - Edwin Porter
One Week - Buster Keaton

We had enormous fun doing this show. The DADA films are so playful that they encouraged us to do the same. The show had lots of percussion, tons of improvisation, some readings by me of DADA writings (electronically manipulated). It was very high energy, and the audience seemed to love it.

But we have really not been able to play the show again. Alloy tries to do our shows in perfect 35mm prints. Almost none exist of these films. The existing 16mm prints come from a variety of distributors and run at various speeds. It would be a nightmare to try to collect and project these films for a tour.

Outside the theater, in one of the exhibition spaces at the National Gallery of Art, Paul Lehrman (musician and historian who teaches at Tufts University here in Boston) recreated George Anteuil's Symphonie Mechanique. Anteuil actually wrote the piece without refering to the movie and the score runs about three times as long. It is supposed to have a stage full of player pianos that are all synced up to play in unison. This wasn't possible at the time of the composition (which was somewhat after the film came out).

Now, Lehrman, with the help of computers, has been able to realize the score. Along with the pianos are a vast array of percussion instruments (which were also automated in the show) and a very loud aircraft siren. The show was amazing!

[charliechaplinfan]

A simple question but do you have any favorite scores or use of contemprorary music in talkies?

[Ken Winokur]

A simple question but do you have any favorite scores or use of contemprorary music in talkies?

I'm really not the one to ask about this. Even though I am addicted to movies, I really don't pay that much attention to the scores in sound films. I find that if I listen too closely to the music, I tend to lose the thread in the film, or at least it makes me leave that delicious dream state you get to when sinking into a great story.

I do always like Bernard Herman scores. Danny Elfman is great. I've been listening to a bunch of Henry Mancini music from film noirs that I love.

[movieman1957]

Who are your favorite composers (film, contemporary or classical)? Do what extent, if any, do they influence your work?

On the other side has anyone mentioned you as an influence in their work?

[SSO Admins]

Whew. I finally made it back.

We talked about this briefly, but I found it fascinating that Underworld is a Paramount movie. They've generally had the worst record for supporting silents of any of the majors. Can you talk a little bit about how you managed to get support for doing Underworld (which is a beautiful print by the way) and what possibility you have of doing future projects with them. Any possibility of DVD releases?

[Ken Winokur]

Who are your favorite composers (film, contemporary or classical)? Do what extent, if any, do they influence your work?

On the other side has anyone mentioned you as an influence in their work?

Ah, a trip down memory lane.

I was born in 1954, so in the early 60's I started listening to AM radio - Johnnie Rabbit on KXOK radio in St. Louis (from St. Louis) I loved Bob Cuban and the Innmen doing the Cheater, The Tighten Up by Archie Bell and the Drells, the Fifth Dimension.

In about 1966 my mother gave me the Verve compilation of Gene Krupa (I had just started playing drums). I listened to that record until you could see through it if you held it up to the light.

As I got a little older I started listening to Hendrix, The Band, Jefferson Airplane, and Traffic. I played in a few bands at this stage doing Dead covers (which I never liked). I practiced my drums in the basement every morning (as my mother required) to these records for about a half an hour.

Later in high school, I discovered Ornette Coleman (what a mindfuck!) and Miles (Bitches Brew). I also used to drive around in my best friend's father's convertable Mustang, listening to classical music (he was a bassoon player). One day we were listening to some Bach, and we heard mooing from the background. The chaos continued, and we drove to the radio station and found out that they were playing PDQ Bach.

In college I abandoned rock entirely, and started listening to lots of jazz and classical. I discovered Charles Ives and Harry Parch (still my favorite) and learned to appreciate Shumann.

I moved to Paris after college for two years, and heard some fantastic concerts. I saw a film at the Museum of Modern Art in Paris of Stockhausen's composition with a giant gong. There were 2 guys in white jumpsuites sanding and scratching on a giant gong (perhaps 15 ft. high). There were several more guys in a control booth manipulating filters. I brought a date to this show and she was obviously soooo... bored. I tried to ignore her for the duration of the show.

I saw Anthony Braxton doing a show at the Maison de la Radio (the state supported radio station). He had a tuba player (name unknown) who had uncoiled his instrument so that it reached from the stage into the audience. Fantastic concert!

I went to a lecture of Alain Robbe Grillet (writer) and he presented an unknown composer - Phillip Glass, who was premiering his score for Einstein on the Beach the next day. It was free and I planned to go. But, for whatever reason I didn't go. One of the biggest regrets of my life.

After that, I got to interview Robbe-Grillet for a magazine (I was trying to become a famous journalist at that time).

I also interviewed Steve Lacey. It was a fascinating interview of a guy who had worked with the free jazz guys (Ornette), but had started working on music that was one more step organized. The interview was published in Paris Life Magazine. Don't even bother to try to find this on the internet!

My editor did an article on "punk rock" which was totally unknown to me in 1976 or 1977. He wrote about the bands, The Sex Pistols and Stinky and the Toys (a French punk band). I was really intrigued by the statement of somebody.

I moved to Boston in late 1977. I was painting my apartment in Cambridge and listening to the radio. On the MIT station (then called WTBS) and heard a DJ called Oedipus play Talking Head's Psycho Killier. I had to get off my ladder and listen because I was laughing so hard.

I started going to clubs and listening to lots of local punk bands. Mission of Burma (with my current partner, Roger Miller), Arcade Ambo (more of a new wave band with my current partner Terry Donahue - who played on a metal pipe and totally inspired me to do more junk percussion), The Girls, The Maps, Zev (performance art - junk art music), Christian Markeley (early turntable art), Rick Wolff (more performance).

I worked during this time (for money) as a photographer and writer doing art reviews, portraits of bands. and commercial photography for the most evil corporations in the area.

I grew tired of rock (even though I continued to play in Bam Bam, Bentmen and Concussion Ensemble) and started listening to African and Latin traditional music. I also listened to Worldbeat, but my heart remained with the traditional stuff (mostly of completely anonymous musicians).

In the 90's I mostly stopped listening to music (and played with Alloy, Roger Miller's various solo projects and did soundtrack jobs for Seseme Street, MTV, VH1 and others).

More recently I love to listen to ragtime music (Van Epes, Chas Creath) and early jazz (King Oliver, Baby Dodds, New Dixieland jazz Ensemble). I also love the early blues from St. Louis, Kansas City (and even other states).

Ken

[Ken Winokur]

I should mention that I currently listen to my wind up gramaphone more than any other listening device. I've acquired about 400 78's over the last 15 years (mostly for free or $.25 each) and play them on my early 20's Victrola wind up (console) player. I have a picture of Rudolph Valentino in 1924, standing in front of our exact Victrola!

t's always fun to party with the 70. I usually designate some bored friend to DJ the 78's. You have to change records every 3 minutes, and wind it at least every couple of times. It's quitee fun, but takes some attention.

Here are a few of the first records (the most recently played)
I could grab:

The OK Laughing Record - a recording of a guy who keeps laughing (hard to explain, but it's the most infectious record I've ever listened to).

Chick Webb - Strickly Jive (Decca)

Benny Goodman - A String of Pearls

Ernest Tubb - and the Andrews Sisters "I'm biting my Fingernails and thinking of you."

Hank Williams - Cold Cold Heart ( this one is great!)

Homer and Jethro - A Screwball's Love Song

Gene Autry - Peter Cottontail

Fred Eps - Red Peper - A Spicy Rag (and on Side B - The Lobster's Prominade). On Victor records

Spike Jones - Der Fueeherer's Face (and on the B side - I want to go back to West Virginia). I should say that he's my biggest influence, but I didn't discover Spike Jones until my 30's or 40's. If there was any musician who I could say that I admire and would like to emulate, it's Spike Jones! And Spike Jonze (Director of the film Being John Malkavitch) the filmaker is also magnificent!

Jimmy Lunceford - The Best Things in Life are Free.

Spike Jones - Morpheus

Tex Ritter - Rye Whiskey and Boll Weevil

Frank Sinatra - Only Five Minutes More.

There's so much old music out there that fantastic. I don't know why we continue to make new stuff!

Ken

[Ken Winokur]

We talked about this briefly, but I found it fascinating that Underworld is a Paramount movie. They've generally had the worst record for supporting silents of any of the majors. Can you talk a little bit about how you managed to get support for doing Underworld (which is a beautiful print by the way) and what possibility you have of doing future projects with them. Any possibility of DVD releases?

Hi Jon,

Thanks again for asking me to do this. As may have already figured out, I love to write (and I type about 90 words per minute). But, we will see who gets tired first, the SSO crowd or me!

So you want to know about Underworld?

I started nosing around about "Beggars of Life" with Louise Brooks and directed by William Wellman. The George Eastman House has a restored print (blown up to 35mm from 16mm). It's pretty fantastic, and this film has only existed as a very poor (almost unwatchable) 16mm for years. But it's owned by Paramount.

Somebody told me to call Paramount and talk to Barry Allen (who as best I know runs the archive there). I called him, expecting the worst, and he was the most agreeable person I've ever dealt with. He mentioned that he could also offer UNDERWORLD and Last Command. UNDERWORLD! I yelled into the phone, let's talk about that!

I called the New York Film Festival. They agreed to it in about 20 minutes. I called back Paramount and the deal was sealed.

He had me talk to the distribution department, and between us, we figured out that with all the Alloy shows we would have in the fall of 2007, we could pay enough film rental to pay for a new print of the film.

The printed it, we played it (and paid the printing costs in the first month).

Now they have made a new print of Last Command which we will tour for the next couple of years.

About a video? We'll have to see. There is still some possibility, but I'm not optimistic.

Ken

[Gagman 66]

Ken,

This is a very interesting story to be sure. I have seldom heard of Paramount being so accommodating like that in these matters. For instance Kevin Brownlow expressed heavy interest in James Cruze THE COVERED WAGON (1923), and hoped to produce a version for his Photo-play Productions. He was basically told to forget it. Kevin said that they have one of the most beautiful 35 millimeter prints of any Silent feature that He has ever seen. So He was rather disappointed in their attitude.

Then you have the on-going mystery of why Paramount will apparently not allow the Brownlow restoration, Photo-play presentation of WINGS to air on TCM? At least not so far? Ditto, for the version he did of Von Stroheim's THE WEDDING MARCH. Both of which I find rather ridiculous? Why on earth wouldn't Paramount want the best version airing on TCM, rather than an older, and inferior transfer?

I understood that there were rumors of a potential DVD release of THE LAST COMMAND, maybe from Criterion with the consent of Paramount. It's discouraging that UNDERWORLD continues to be ignored. Especially, since this is basically the film that kick-started the whole Gangster film genre in the movies.

On the 27th of this month in Chicago they are screening a 35 millimeter of a long unseen Paramount feature Frank Lloyd's CHILDREN OF DIVORCE (1927) with Clara Bow, Esther Ralston, and Gary Cooper. This is high on my list of most wanted Silent's. I know the film was restored by Eastman House in 2001, but it is rarely ever exhibited anywhere. Have you seen this movie? Clara Bow is to put it mildly woefully under-represented on DVD. The majority of her films are just not around, but for poorly stuck bootleg's, and that is so very discouraging. Have you seen CHILDREN OF DIVORCE, or any other rare Clara Bow titles that Paramount has?

Wanted to be sure to mention, another very rare Paramount Silent that I am very curious about received a live screening last year, Karl Brown's STARK LOVE (1927) with Helen Monday and Forrest James. Here is an interesting link about the event last fall in Knoxville Tennessee. Are you familiar with this picture at all?

http://www.knoxnews.com/news/2007/nov/11/no-love-lost/

It's so distressing that film's such as this one, Bill Wellman's BEGGARS OF LIFE, CHILDREN OF DIVORCE, and say Gloria Swanson's 1925 2-Strip Technicolor feature STAGE STRUCK, directed by Allan Dwan are only seen once in a blue moon! A occasional screening to me just does not cut it. Such films can't be rediscovered locked up in some stuffy old vault, and they are not necessarily safe there either. As the recent Universal Studios Fire should tell us?

It's well past time that Paramount let all their Silent films go, into the hands of people, and organizations that really care about perserving and restoring them. Who knows what long unseen treasures may be long hidden in their vaults?. For example, one of my Favorite Silent films is Rowland V. Lee's BARBED WIRE (1927) with Pola Negri, and Clive Brook, and many Silent film fans have probably never even heard of, let alone seen this great movie? How very sad!

[bdp]

I should mention that I currently listen to my wind up gramaphone more than any other listening device. I've acquired about 400 78's over the last 15 years (mostly for free or $.25 each) and play them on my early 20's Victrola wind up (console) player.

You have just completely and irrevocably won my heart!

[Ken Winokur]

I can't explain any of this, except that Alloy seems to be working within Paramount's own comfort zone. We aren't asking for anything from them other than the right to rent the films from them. I assume that Brownlow needed more than that.

I haven't seen any of the films you mention (other than Wings and Beggars of Life). Are all these Paramount? Any other suggestions of Paramount films I should try to see?

You mentioned,

CHILDREN OF DIVORCE,

Karl Brown's STARK LOVE (1927)

Gloria Swanson's 1925 2-Strip Technicolor feature STAGE STRUCK, directed by Allan Dwan a?

Rowland V. Lee's BARBED WIRE (1927) with Pola Negri, and Clive Brook

Does anybody know of a good reference book with titles and descriptions of Paramount's silents. I did a little quick internet research and didn't find a Paramount history.

[catherine]

...speaking of winning hearts, any reference to Gene Krupa will get my attention (or Jim Keltner).Thanks for your time here Ken. There is a quote by someone that states 'true revolutions in art restore more than they destroy' which made me think of your work which broadens the appeal of silent films in a progressive, fresh way and you must be commended. Short films, as little art samplers, are marketed to cell-phones and the internet and there are brilliant sequences in silent film with your contemporary music that would lend itself nicely to this exposure. I'm wondering if this has ever been considered, as with Isabella Rossilleni's genius short insect films? Thanks again!

[Ken Winokur]

Short films, as little art samplers, are marketed to cell-phones and the internet and there are brilliant sequences in silent film with your contemporary music that would lend itself nicely to this exposure. I'm wondering if this has ever been considered, as with Isabella Rossilleni's genius short insect films?

I hadn't really thought about this (although we did have a brief discussion about audio only cell phone rings.

I have to admit that I'm not that great a marketing person. My excuse is that since I'm performing with the group, composing, booking shows, choosing films, doing all the publicity, recording soundtracks and everything else, I just don't have the energy to sell, sell sell.

The one exception to this is I try to keep up with the booking of shows. It's been the one thing we do best, and it actually is a good paycheck. The videos, the CDs, licensing of songs etc. are a very small amount of our yearly income.

[Ken Winokur]

So, while I've got all your attention, perhaps you can help me pick a new film for Alloy to score. This wouldn't be for more than a year probably, so there is lots of time to try to work out details of prints.

What films have you seen that would be good for Alloy to score and tour with?

If you know where prints are available, that would help (35mm and must be in good condition).

When we work with Telluride they really love films that haven't been seen for a while, are obscure, or have received restoration or at least new prints.

We do like really entertaining films. They can be obscure or well known.

I'm not interested in any films in copyright, owned by MGM and Universal (we've failed to come to terms with them in the past)

Best,
Ken