Thames Silents/Channel Four Silents Presentations

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Gagman 66
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Thames Silents/Channel Four Silents Presentations

Post by Gagman 66 »

Everybody,

:D With Kevin Brownlow's impending visit only a couple, three days away, I got to thinking about this.

:? It's just to dang bad that somebody can't put out a great big ole' honkin' DVD Box Set Collection, or better yet a series of smaller box-set's of every single one of the Thames/Photo-Play Productions Silents all fully re-mastered! Sure It would be massive, and quite expensive, but well worth the price!

:wink: Recently, I got a incredible Faber Music CD of lengthy excerpts from Carl Davis Silent film scores! Including Music from the hardest to come by Channel Four Silent's presentations of WINGS (1927), and Von Stroheim's THE WEDDING MARCH (1928). For years I have searched for recordings of the Thames presentations of both these films with no success! Finally I at least got to hear portions of the Carl Davis scores for these amazing films!

:x The problem is ridiculous rights issues. Some films in the series are owned by Warner's such as the MGM titles like THE BIG PARADE, OLD HEIDELBERG, THE CROWD, THE WIND, SHOW PEOPLE, and A WOMAN OF AFFAIRS etc. Some are owned by Paramount, such as WINGS, and THE WEDDING MARCH.

Some are owned by others such as Fairbanks THE THIEF OF BAGDAD, and Valentino's THE EAGLE, both United Artist's Silent's, though now Public Domain. Other versions are available of those Two films, but not with the Davis scores! The Thames version of THE EAGLE is a significantly better print, than the Kino DVD edition. Some like Keaton's OUR HOSPITALITY, and THE GENERAL, already have competing editions from Kino, and Image. Same with Griffith's THE BIRTH OF A NATION and INTOLERANCE, as they are also Public Domain.

It just frustrates the heck out of me that the vast majority of the Silent's that Carl Davis has scored over the years including his latest score less than a year ago for De Mille's Masterpiece THE GODLESS GIRL (1928), along with the other Thames/Photo-play Productions composers work, like John Lanchbery, are nowhere to be found on DVD!

There are a few of the Carl Davis scores on official DVD, but not very many. The Thames/Photo-play Productions versions of Clara Bow's IT (Paramount, 1927), with a Carl Davis score is available on the Milestone DVD release. The Carl Davis score to the 1929 re-issue of Lon Chaney's THE PHANTOM OF THE OPERA (Universal, 1925), is also available from Milestone, on the two disc Ultimate Edition DVD set. Additionally, Davis scores are featured on the 90th Anniversary Chaplin Mutual's DVD collection from Image Entertainment.

Yes, Both BEN HUR (1925), and FLESH AND THE DEVIL (1926), among the MGM Silent's have been released on DVD. The first as an Extra on the 3 disc BEN HUR (1959) set, it is the second of the 3 disc's in the set. The other movie was offered as part of the 3 disc TCM Archives Garbo Silent's collection from Warner's released in September of 2005.

Then in the New-Line Entertainment Harold Lloyd DVD Box set, there are the hold over Davis scores from the earlier Thames editions of Lloyd's SAFETY LAST (1923), THE KID BROTHER (1927), and SPEEDY (1928).

The only other two that immediately come to mind is on the Douglas Fairbanks DVD Box-set from Kinom Which features the Channel Four Silents version and Carl Davis score to THE IRON MASK (United Artists, 1929). Also the Image DVD of Raymond Bernard's THE CHESS PLAYER (1926) with Edith Jehanne, which is probably already out of print? There has to be a few more than this that have been released on DVD, but those are the only titles that I can think of at the moment? Oh, the Davis scored versions of Keaton's OUR HOSPITALITY, and THE GENERAL have been released on DVD in Region 2 and Pal format in Britain, but not in the United States? I think that about covers it though?

Many more of the Thames Silent's, and later Channel Four Silent's series such as THE FOUR HORSEMEN OF THE APOCALYPSE, THE BIG PARADE, OLD HEIDELBERG, THE CROWD, and THE WIND, were once available on both VHS and Laser-disc, but are long since out of print, and today those are real collectors item's if you can even find them!

:) I am very fortunate to have about 50 Silent features with Carl Davis scores on DVD-R! Including THE THIEF OF BAGDAD, and THE EAGLE, both from Laser-disc! In-fact, I just recently located a 2 VHS set of the Thames INTOLERANCE with a Carl Davis score, but have not transferred it to DVD-R yet.

The only ones that I am still missing are the Davis scores to Griffith's MUSKETEER'S OF PIG ALLEY, Von Stroheim's GREED (MGM, 1924), (the 2 and a half hour version, not the Four-Hour reconstruction with music by Robert Israel). Also Harold Lloyd's THE FRESHMAN (1925) the current DVD from Sony/New-line Entertainment version which has a Robert Israel score again, which is a fabulous score but I always wanted to hear the Davis one.

:roll: I do not have the Davis score to Abel Gance Epic NAPOLEON (1927), I have this film, with the Carmine Coppalla score (quite spectacular in it's own right), but more footage has since been found, and Carl Davis Composed a score for the picture. Though this movie doesn't really count, as the Davis version has not been shown of Television due to legal wranglings! The Carmine Coppalla scored version though, certainly has been, however, the Region 2 DVD release is not out of print! It was never released in Region 1 in America!

:shock: Finally the two most difficult to come by titles in the entire series, the Photo-play Productions restorations/presentations to William Wellman's WINGS (Paramount, 1927), and Von Stroheim's THE WEDDING MARCH (Paramount, 1928) with Fay Wray. I have both film's, and let me say that my print of WINGS from Laser-disc is much better than what TCM aired last month, though neither film have Carl Davis scores.

I have heard people in the past claim to have copies of the Thames presentation of THE WEDDING MARCH, and know of people who saw the Photo-play version of WINGS broadcast during a Christmas Season of Silent's about 15 to 18 years ago on British Television, but have never found anyone to date who actually has a copy of the broadcast! Yet the Kevin Brownlow-David Gill Produced Channel Four Silent's Photo-play Productions presentation does indeed exist, so it has to be out there someplace!

:shock: "TCM Programmer" has even re-iterated that they are trying to get a hold of the Photo-play Productions version as a matter of fact! So maybe the Brownlow-Gill produced, Carl Davis scored version of the film, possibly even both films will yet to turn up? I sure hope so! The excerpt's from these films scores, taken directly from the Thames presentations on the Faber Music Carl Davis CD are quite extraordinary!

Wait I just recalled another film on DVD I did not mention before is LA TERRA (1919). Or THE GOOD EARTH as it was called in America in 1921. This is a Channel Four Silent from Photo-play Productions, and it is in print on DVD from Kino. The score is by Adrian Johnston, who also composed a great score for Harold Lloyd's HOT WATER for the Thames version. Sadly that score is not found on the New-Line Entertainment DVD.

Finally the new Kino DVD of Paul Leni's THE CAT AND THE CANARY with the adorable Laura La Plante, which just came outr a few months back is the recent Photo-play Productions restoration.

In closing, I would like to know if Mr. Brownlow has ever considered producing Photo-play versions of the following five titles?:

WINE OF YOUTH (MGM, 1924), Directed By King Vidor.

HIS HOUR (Goldwyn, 1924) Note, this is the film that made John Gilbert a ligitimate Superstar. Directed by King Vidor.

THE GOOSE WOMAN (Universal, 1925) Louise Dresser, Constance Bennett, Jack Pickford. Directed by Clarence Brown. Note, Brownlow has mentioned this film as one of his favorites, or at least a picture that He was very impressed with when He saw it.

BARBED WIRE (1927) Pola Negri, Clive Brook. Directed by Rowland V. Lee. One of the most underrated silents I have seen, should be much better known.

LILAC TIME (1928) Colleen Moore, Gary Cooper. Directed by George Fitzmaurice. Note, What no Colleen Moore films, in any of the Brownlow restorations? Gotta have at least one!
Last edited by Gagman 66 on April 12th, 2008, 7:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Ann Harding
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Post by Ann Harding »

Gagman, I saw Wine of Youth recently during a King Vidor retrospective. To be frank I would rate it as some kind of bog-standard programmer. But, Proud Flesh (1925) with Eleanor Boardman and Pat O'Brien was far more interesting in its use of the San Francisco locations and its characters. :wink:

Is His Hour still extant? It wasn't featured at the Cinémathèque retrospective.
Last edited by Ann Harding on April 12th, 2008, 6:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Gagman 66
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Post by Gagman 66 »

Ann,

:? Details on HIS HOUR are sketchy at best. This was a lost film until about 9 or 10 years ago. A print was discovered then in a Czech archive. As I understand it the print has Czech title-cards and they have yet to be Translated to English.

:roll: A Goldwyn Silent, it is apparently not owned by Warner's? At least it appears that the Museum Of Modern Art has the print not Warner Brothers? As for just how much of the film exists, I have not idea? I am hoping that all the reels are in-tact, but this appears rather unlikely, otherwise the movie would have probably been restored
by now?

:o Sorry, that you didn't much care for WINE OF YOUTH. I personally felt it was a much better film than BEAU BRUMMEL, which Warner's decided to restore, and certainly far superior to WILD ORANGES!. Have you seen THE CIRCLE (1925), by the way? Also what do you know about FORBIDDEN HOURS (1928), having been found? Last I knew this was still a Lost film? Now we have people on the TCM forum mentioning recent screenings???
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Re: Thames Silents/Channel Four Silents Presentations

Post by bdp »

Gagman 66 wrote: I just recently located a 2 VHS set of the Thames INTOLERANCE with a Carl Davis score
You're welcome. 8)
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Ann Harding
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Post by Ann Harding »

Well, Gagman, I far prefer Wild Oranges to Wine of Youth. I feel that Vidor was allowed in Wild Oranges to really show his own personality far more than with Wine of Youth, probably, because he worked on location (fantastic images of Florida) rather than in a studio. Anyway, King Vidor's greatest achievements are The Crowd and The Big Parade. When are they going to be released on DVD?????

Regarding His Hour (1924), it's a production from Metro Goldwyn company before the take over by Louis B. Mayer. In 1924, Goldwyn was already out of the picture, so to speak, he was already an independant producer and had no stake in MGM. Other pictures produced before the 1924 merger are: The Red Lily and Greed; they both belong to TCM.

I haven't seen Beau Brummel so I cannot comment but I have been disappointed many times by silent John Barrymore vehicles. He needed very badly a very good director and had to make do with hacks.... :?
Last edited by Ann Harding on April 13th, 2008, 2:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Gagman 66
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Post by Gagman 66 »

Ann,

:o THE BIG PARADE was fully restored in 2004 by George Eastman House, with funding from Warner's. The original camera negative was used in the restoration. Long believed lost it was Kevin Brownlow himself who discovered the negative at Eastman House in 2000 or 2001, I believe? It had been transported there during the 60's, along with many other MGM Silent's when a vault fire broke out at the Studio.

:) My understanding is all the original tints have been re-instated, but I am not so sure about the Two-Strip Technicolor footage? The new master has had some live screening's with Robert Israel at the Wurlitzer, and even conducting live orchestra to the Original 1925 William-Axt, David Mendoza score. I know people who have seen it live. The new version contains additional footage that had not been seen since 1925! Probably about a reel and a half-longer, or more. My friend Jack described the difference from the older Thames presentaion as an incredible improvement!

:( The DVD was supposed to be coming out by the end of 2005 for the films 80th Anniversary. Every year Warner's has put the DVD on the back-burner. I never thought that it would take this long! At least some version should have been released by now? As it is the restored print still hasn't premiered on TCM as of yet, let alone DVD?

:roll: I am still hoping for an eventual Three disc set with the new version, hopefully featuring Robert Israel conducting his Orchestra to the 1925 Axt, Mendoza score. Plus the Thames version with Carl Davis score, also re-mastered, and the shortened 1931 sound re-issue with a recorded track of the modified Axt-Mendoza score, also re-mastered.
to bad, it will likely never happen? We may get a DVD, but the score probably won't be the original one, or even the Carl Davis version, which was heavily adapted from the Axt-Mendoza one anyway.

:shock: With THE CROWD, and Kyle and I both feel the same about this, it could stand some additional restoration, and re-mastering. This is another title that has been kicked around for potential DVD release for years, but so far nothing has happened?

I will give WILD ORANGES another look. Must confess I lost interest about half-way through. But part of this was the Vivek Maddalla score, which did not go at all with the film! I still think WINE OF YOUTH is very good, and everyone else that I know who has seen it pretty much shared the same opinion. Plus did you know that both Clark Gable, and Jean Arthur among others, were supposed to be extra's in one of the party scenes? Plus I think the main cast is top notch.

I have not seen PROUD FLESHby the way, but would like to. As far as I am aware neither this film, or THE CIRCLE have been shown on TCM before?

Kyle,

:cry: Sorry I am running behind with the Thames INTOLERANCE. I have been bogged down with allot of things over the past few weeks. Anyway, I have not heard from you in some time except on this board? Hope to talk with you some more very soon.


I still have never seen the Thames version of GREED, and just this past week, I lost out on the laser-disc on Ebay! I lost it with less than 15 seconds to go! So Frustrating! :evil:

Incidentally, do you still have the Laser-disc's of A HARD ACT TO FOLLOW"?
Last edited by Gagman 66 on April 13th, 2008, 4:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by bdp »

Jeffrey, I do still have the laserdisc set of A Hard Act to Follow; much as I still need money I haven't broken down and sold the lasers yet, I hate the thought of having to mail them out (not as easy as mailing CD's and DVD's).

While of course the laserdisc would be optimal I do have a VHS copy of Greed if you're interested.
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Gagman 66
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Post by Gagman 66 »

Kyle,

:o Yes, If you remember I borrowed the LD's of A HARD ACT TO FOLLOW from you in the first place to make my own copies. But I was never happy with the result, and your transfers are so much better than mine!

:? I might be able to get an LD Transfer of the Thames GREED from Roy Sites? I will let you know.
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Post by Ann Harding »

Gagman 66 wrote:I will give WILD ORANGES another look. Must confess I lost interest about half-way through. But part of this was the Vivek Maddalla score, which did not go at all with the film! I have not seen PROUD FLESHby the way, but would like to. As far as I am aware neither this film, or THE CIRCLE have been shown on TCM before?
TCM France showed Wild Oranges without a score, so I don't know what the Maddalla score was like.... I saw Proud Flesh at the Cinémathèque; a very beautiful print BTW. I have never seen The Circle. I don't think either has been shown on TCM. What a shame! :(
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Gagman 66
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Post by Gagman 66 »

Ann,

:( I have a very poor bootleg of THE CIRCLE on VHS. I have never transfered it to DVD-R, it had been transfered a number of times already I am afraid before I first obtained it. The original Tape was probably pretty good quality? You can tell that much about it.

:? The first reel is definitely missing, maybe more? It starts out with the Characters having already been introduced? You don't know who anyone is? The Music is from an old Reel Images Version from the late 70's of THE GOLD RUSH, although I always thought it was the best score I have ever heard with the film. Probably all Vintage Music, but I have no idea where it originated from? All remarkably good though. However, it does not go well with THE CIRCLE I am sorry to say.


I wonder if PROUD FLESH has been shown and if it has a score yet? Another film I am curious about is THE DEVIL'S CIRCUS (1926) with Norma Shearer. I wonder if it has aired on TCM at all?

:wink: TCM in the States has shown the new restoration of WILD ORANGES about 3 times not since the premier in July of 2006. It is a very nice tinted print. Some of the Maddalla score is OK. If you would like to see a copy, contact me through the PM's, we can certainly work something out.

8) I probaly have numerous other titles thaty have aired which you haven't seen yet? The print TCM ran of BEAU BRUMMEL was gorgeous, one of the best looking Warner Brothers Silent's I have seen. On that end, You wouldn't by any chance have seen, or have THE COSSACKS, or know where I might obtain a copy, would you???
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Post by Ann Harding »

Gagman: I already have a copy of Wild Oranges from the TCM France broadcast: it's gorgeous. But I would be VERY interested by The Circle (1925); this is one Borzage silent I have never seen. :) According to Hervé Dumont's book on Borzage, The Circle was originally 5511 ft long. The only existing copy is 5324 ft (clocking 75 min at 21fps).
I have never heard of The Cossacks or ever seen it. Sorry! :wink:
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Gagman 66
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The Cossacks (1928)

Post by Gagman 66 »

Ann,

:o Roy Hill's (Director Of TELL IT TO THE MARINES), THE COSSACKS is a 1928 feature Starring John Gilbert, Renee Adoree, Nils Asther, and Ernest Torrence. I have seen a couple of clips from the movie, but not the film itself. The print looked very good that was used.

:shock: Last year I found a guy in France who claimed to have a copy on DVD-R, but He wouldn't sell it to me individually I had to buy several other films at the same time. Each of them $50.00! The quality of any of them was unknown so I passed up the chance. He also had SLIDE, KELLY, SLIDE (1927), with William Haines, and Sally O' Neil. Both films do exist they are in the Warner's vault's, and apparently complete.


Speaking of rare King Vidor films, I also have THE JACK-KNIFE MAN (1920), Starring Florence Vidor, and PEG' O MY HEART (1922) with Lauriat Taylor. Both are pretty good quality prints. Have you seen either of these before? How about THE SKY PILOT (1921), with Jon Bowers And Colleen Moore, I have a couple different versions of that too!
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Post by ratkins »

As no offical list seems to be available, what films has Photoplay/ Brownlow & Gill restored? I have all 6 laserdisc issues and the VHS releases of Intolerance and the Harold Lloyd comedies, but what else is there? Gagman has 50 titles??!! Help me Obi Wan!

Ron
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Post by bdp »

I have 14 Thames/Photoplay restorations on laserdisc:

Ben-Hur (now on DVD)
The Big Parade
Broken Blossoms
The Crowd
The Eagle
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
The General
Our Hospitality
Show People
The Strongman
The Student Prince In Old Heidelberg
The Thief of Bagdad
The Wind
A Woman of Affairs

I just lost an eBay auction for the Photoplay edition of Greed, and I have the VHS edition of Intolerance.
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Gagman 66
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Post by Gagman 66 »

Kyle,

:) Don't forget the HOLLYWOOD documentary on Laser-disc, and CINEMA EUROPE was on DVD. Just a quick note here, I mailed you a package yesterday, so be on the look out for it.

What is missing in BEN HUR by the way? KB said a few minutes of a key sequence were absent on the DVD of his presentation? I can't figure it out what it might be??? I had made up a version of DVD-R off of TCM, and I don't see anything different? The Thames BEN HUR does not appear to be re-mastered for DVD, in the way FLESH AND THE DEVIL had been?

ratkins,

:wink: In addition to everything Kyle mentioned here, I sent you a PM just a few minutes ago, so be on the look out for it! Are you interested in their latest effort, De Mille's THE GODLESS GIRL? A great, great film! Incidentally, David Gill passed away in 1997. Kevin Brownlow's partner since that time has been Patrick Stansbury on all the subsequent restorations that have been produced.
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