Buster Keaton

[MichiganJ]

You seem to think romance means "winning the girl". To me it's far more emotional and effective if the main character loses the girl, but still loves deeply.

Actually I don't, and Chaplin "wins" the girl in each film except The Circus, and he never had her in the first place.

While there's no question that the Tramp loves the Blind Girl and the Gamine, and they him, I just don't see it as a romantic love. They are and will be great friends, but I just don't see a love affair in their future(s).

I do, however, see the Little Fellow and Georgia sharing a life together, in romantic love, after the fade out of The Gold Rush.

[intothenitrate]

I hadn't noticed this and it's intriguing. In which films and which scenes have you noticed this?

I did make sort of a sweeping statement there. His lingering on the "suchness" of certain things became apparent to me during Our Hospitality. And I don't notice it in the earlier shorts. Both the Chaplin and Lloyd personas certainly evolved to be the sympathetic characters we think today (with the benefit of hindsight). In the earlier rough and tumble films they can be a little callous.

[movieman1957]

L&H wives got run the range of characters. Mostly though they were bossy bordering on belligerent. I would imagine it would be to raise sympathy for the boys. The contrast makes for good comedy. They were not about romance. At least they were not about romance when they were married. More often than not it seems Ollie was married and Stan was always in the way or was Ollie's connection to "freedom." It gave him, or tried to, one last thing he might control.

I think Keaton was romantic. My initial thought is that Chaplain fits that definition as well but I have seen less Chaplain than the others we are discussing.

[JackFavell]

Stan and Ollie, or at least Ollie, seems to be drawn to other men's wives quite often, since his own wife often scares or rejects him outright. Flirtatious and gentlemanly, he finds some excitement in meeting Thelma Todd in the hallway and actually speaking to her. Even if the conversation is mundane in the extreme, there is always the underlying sexual connotation and the hope that it will turn into something else. Other men's wives always find Ollie attractive, or maybe they are just on their best behavior because it isn't THEIR husband. When something actually does happen, i.e. Thelma caught in Ollie's bedroom, in a trunk or as an armchair, it is the worst nightmare imaginable. It reminds me of Fatal Attraction.

Even though I am a woman, I can still understand Ollie's fascination with flirting. I think maybe all married couples have the sorts of thoughts Ollie has, wanting to be attractive to the opposite sex is a universal subliminal need and was perfect for comedic exploration.

[intothenitrate]

I don't pull out Limelight too often, but when I'm ready to see it, it always makes a big impression on me. I watched it a week ago and am still haunted by it. Here's a situation where Chaplin (Calvero) intervenes altruistically in a girl's life--a la City Lights--and she gives herself to him completely. And yet, he won't have her because he thinks she'll be happier with a more conventional match. Maybe he's trying to describe an even greater love, that is, even more profound than "getting the girl."

And since this is a Buster Keaton thread, I LOVE it when Keaton says, "If one more person says it's just like old times, I'll jump out the winda."

[JackFavell]

I did make sort of a sweeping statement there. His lingering on the "suchness" of certain things became apparent to me during Our Hospitality. And I don't notice it in the earlier shorts.

I think this is especially noticeable in the period films. It helps place the picture and make it seem authentic. But there is more to it - the things that Keaton leaves the camera lingering on are usually mechanical and quite beautiful, many times rotary type mechanisms, like the bicycle or the wheels of a train in motion as he sits on the crossbar (or whatever it's called). Those circular objects are fascinating as a metaphor for Keaton's universe as well.

[movieman1957]

JackFavell says

there is always the underlying sexual connotation and the hope that it will turn into something else.

I've never really thought that anything would lead to a wish for an affair. I do agree there is a certain flirting that comes with an attractive woman actually paying attention to Ollie even if it is casual. I think what makes the situation funny in the film with Thelma is the fact that it is the most innocent visit that could only be interpreted one way.

Women who are not their wives are not in a position th henpeck them.

[JackFavell]

I think you are right - there is no wish for anything except a woman to be nice to him... perhaps to cater to him as he so richly deserves to be catered to.....in his mind. Although I think he would not turn down a friendly kiss on the cheek. He is though, a very romantic fellow.

[MichiganJ]

Both the Chaplin and Lloyd personas certainly evolved to be the sympathetic characters we think today (with the benefit of hindsight).

They certainly do evolve and, my guess is, that their fans in the day saw their films as they were released and watched their characters evolve over time. For modern fans, it's nice that so many of their films are available so that we can see the transformations as well and is why I decided to work my way through the Keaton films in order, despite having seen most of them numerous times.

In the earlier rough and tumble films they can be a little callous.

If you check out the Chaplin at Keystone set you'll see Charlie isn't just a little callous, he's often downright mean! (And fair-is-fair, many of Lloyd's Lonseome Luke's shorts are pretty mean, too.)

[MichiganJ]

Continuing with Buster Keaton, I've run into a slight conundrum. After Arbuckle left to make features, Keaton took over as the featured comic at Comique (later Buster Keaton Productions) where he made his first short, The High Sign, while apparently also shooting his first feature, The Saphead. Sources differ as to which film went into production first, and while I was trying to watch his films in production order, I opted for The Saphead because it is an anomaly in the Keaton canon.

Keaton is strictly an actor in The Saphead, a film based on a popular stage play that had at one time starred Douglas Fairbanks. Unfortunately The Saphead is obviously a filmed play: static, ponderous , overly melodramatic, and with a plot that is convoluted to say the least. (Essentially it's the early Fairbanks-ian "lamb to lion" formula, with Keaton playing "Bertie", a pampered and frivolous innocent who accidentally makes good on Wall Street, saving everyone who needs saving.)

While the film is a mess, Keaton himself is a marvel. Not only is his acting incredible (especially considering at this time Keaton had only been in slapstick comedies with Arbuckle), but Keaton gives a charm to Bertie, which remains even after Bertie's transformation from lamb to lion, and that transformation is pretty fun to watch. (The energetic and very amusing climax, while long in arriving, does have plenty of laughs.)

Keaton recognized the comic potential that his character had, but was woefully unexploited in The Saphead. The template of the lazy, spoiled, rich ineffectual character would turn up in later Keaton films (most notably The Navigator and Battling Butler), but the seeds are quite obviously planted in Bertie.

[charliechaplinfan]

It was always my understanding that The Saphead came first from the various books on Silent Comedy I've read. I like The Saphead, in fact I watched it first without realising it wasn't Keaton through and through and I really liked it. It isn't as tightly scripted as Keaton's own but Keaton's portrayal of the lazy rich boy was enough to keep me hooked.

I've not seen the L&H with Thelma Todd. My acquaitance is more with Sons of the Desert, Twice Two, Oliver the Eighth and Blockheads and too many shorts to remember properly. Stan always seems to have found a wife by accident, not knowing quite what he's meant to do with her a[art from disobey her, behind her back of course.

I've wondered what I'd make of Chaplin's Keystones, I like the romantic, morally good tramp.

[intothenitrate]

I watched The Saphead last night because, well, this is a smoking hot thread. You're right, MJ, this is an odd addition to the Keaton canon. The opening title cards tell how Douglas Fairbanks played the role on stage, and then recommended Keaton for the screen adaptation. Quite an incongruous substitution!

Certainly the film has all the trappings of a glossy [proto-] MGM production and Keaton is just another player in it. There are glimmers here and there of his unique comedic treatment, and it's a pleasure to watch because he's in it. But as a film, I wonder if it would have been appreciably improved or diminished with another actor in the lead.

His persona as a "lazy, spoiled, rich ineffectual character" is delightful in the two later films you mention, but I noticed a difference [with the Saphead character] that is worth mentioning. In The Battling Butler--which I saw more recently-- a lot of his character's "goofs" originate from misreading situations because he is looking at them through the lens of social propriety, or an excess of manners, or according to the dictates of a stilted sense of sophistication. Here we get a double laugh--one for the basic schadenfreude he milks out of us time and again, and one for the silliness of the affected, moneyed class. There's the genius. In The Saphead, he just seems sort of stupid for stupid's sake.

Having the benefit of hindsight, I kept thinking about how, ten years later, he would be cast in the painful-to-watch "Elmer" persona of the early MGM talkies.

[charliechaplinfan]

I think Fairbanks had filmed his own version some years before, Keaton is an odd substitution for Fairbanks in everything apart from the athleticism. With both actors I get a thrill just watching them perform because of their athletic abilities and how they come across on screen.

I was thinking about the Keaton features in order of how I enojy them to see if it would give me some insight into why I like him so much.

Our Hosptality tops my list, because of that very attention to detail mentioned here, I feel like I'm getting a partial history lesson at the same time. I love all the laughs that come off the back of both the train ride and the hospitality and of course the stunt at the end, amazing.
Sherlock Jnr - I'm sure I'd have liked this even more but the score Kino put with is awful, nevertheless I turn off the score and watch, his technincal ability and tricks with the camera I think are above Lloyd and Chaplin, the chases too that never seem to end but are never boring. Perfection
The General - Keaton's genius is to take a subject that isn't very interesting to me, trains and war and make one of my favorite silent movies out of it. What can I say that hasn't been said.
Steamboat Bill jnr - Some say Keaton was going off his game when he made this but I think it has some wonderful parts, the cyclone sequence is amazing and I like the gentle humour with the hats and inthe jailhouse
Battling Butler - Just as has been mentioned above, the rich boy humour is much better here, I feel the film builds up to a climax which some may find distasteful but I never do, I quite like watching Buster beat the other guy to a pulp. I like all the gags around the training camp.
College - this was probably made to capitalise on Lloyd's Freshman, I can hear Joe Schenk telling Buster to make this movie and Buster not wanting to be a copy cat. Nevertheless Buster's film for me is the better, I feel perhaps his heart isn't in it but it works. It's the first feature I always picture him stood under the umbrella with his mother.
Seven Chances - I've seen this the most often, another Buster didn't want to make but a must for the scene with the brides and the chase. He turned a script he didn't want into a minor masterpiece.
The Navigator - doesn't work quite as well for me, I think it's because the giirl is seriously dumb in this one but I like the gags built around the boat
Go West - sweet, a touch of Chaplin as friendless, it doesn't feel quite as original for me.
The Three Ages - I hesitate to put this in the list as I haven't seen it in a long time but my memory of it, it isn't as good as the others.

[charliechaplinfan]

I guess by looking at my list, I really enjoy Keaton's attention to detail and accuracy, the way he understands the inner working of a camera and what it's capable of, the films he's been allowed to develop by himself.

I can't compare Chaplin and Keaton because apart from the exception of Go West I feel they are completely different with their features which is an amazing thing. I wouldn't be able to compile a list of Keaton and Chaplin together in a order. With the exception of a couple of Keaton films, I'd rather watch them than Lloyd, not that I'm trying to bash Lloyd, I still rate Lloyd highly for Girl Shy, The Kid Brother and Safety Last. I guess with Lloyd I wish I could just sit down and discover what so many others enjoy so much.

[JackFavell]

Love your list, CCFan! I really like Steamboat Bill, Jr. better than most, too. Every section of Steamboat Bill is priceless, I like every part. There is no soft area where I get bored or losr attention. It was the first Keaton for me - my sister had a movie projector and this was her first movie. I don't think that's the only reason I like it. There is something breathtaking in all of Keaton's movies - in this one, the entire cyclone sequence is incredible, but there are other sections that also thrill. I also love the simple attention to the structure of his gags. He takes so much time to set things up, the payoff may not come until later in the movie and is usually a surprise when it does happen.

Frankly, just watching Keaton run bases in College is thrilling to me, the eye of the camera showing the entire diamond. He's sheer poetry when he runs.

My favorites:

The General
Steamboat Bill, Jr.
Our Hospitality
Cops
One Week
Seven Chances
The Balloonatic
The Navigator
Sherlock Jr. (perhaps because of that score you spoke of, it falls lower on my list)
The Play House
College
The Cameraman
The Boat