What is a PreCode?

[Rita Hayworth]

Can anyone here can tell me what a PreCodes is?

I know Silents - but - this is the first time I heard this term - maybe I seen some of them by accident and I would like some help in this. I hate to start a new thread to ask this question - but my heart tells me that I want to learn more about the wonders of cinema history. I will be patience until someone give me the scoop behind it.

[Lzcutter]

Kingme,
In the late 1920s, in the wake of various scandals that captivated the country (both good and bad), there was a great deal of talk of censorship and the movies. To keep the church and the feds at bay, the moguls who ran the studios decided that self-policing would be preferable to government and/or church involvement.

They agreed upon a code in 1930 but, thankfully for movie-goers then and all of us today, the code was not enforced and there were no penalties for not towing the line. They hired Will Hays, the former Postmaster General. Luckily, Hays ruled with a lax hand. This allowed such wonderful films such as Red Dust, Three on a Match, Scarface, etc. It was an era where subject matter was often treated in an adult manner and films dealt with prostitution, drug abuse, violence in an adult and realistic manner, not to mention the lingerie or lack thereof that passed as costumes.

By 1934, with Decency Leagues, the Church and conservatives of all stripes were threatening Hollywood with mandated censorship. The moguls once again floated the idea of self-censorship. Reminded that they had already done that and subject matter was still out of control, the moguls regrouped and decided that in order to keep the church and the government out of the picture, the Motion Picture Code had to have teeth and had to have consequences, monetary consequences like fines.

They hired Joseph Breen to do the actual enforcing. Though the Code is often called the Hays Code it was, in fact, the Breen Code, that brought an end to the Pre-Code era in 1934. Breen took his job as moral watchdog very serious and put together a list of of do's and don'ts. Gone were the loose women, sharing of the same bed, the loose moral code of the street, swear words. Breen attached fines, hefty fines, to scripts that did not follow his code and all scripts had to be vetted by his office before shooting could be completed. David Selznick had to pay such a fine in order for Rhett Butler to deliver his famous final line to Scarlett in Gone with the Wind.

Married couples slept in twin beds, suicide was to be avoided at all costs and if characters broke the law, they had to pay a price by either dying or going to prison. Talkie films that had been initially released during the Pre-Code era had to be recut and submitted to the Breen Office for approval before they could be reissued on the bottom of double bills. That's how Barbara Stanwyck's Baby Face was truncated. Gone was the footage of her father selling her to other men, her sleeping her way to the top, etc.

The original version was recut and for over seventy years the original version was thought lost. Luckily, a few years ago, the original uncut version was found in a mismarked can in the archive of the Library of Congress.

TCM helped with the restoration and ran both versions so that audiences could see for themselves the changes that films had to undergo to conform to the Breen Code.

There is a great book by Mark Vieira called Sin and Soft Focus that goes into great depth about Pre-Code films.

In the meantime, here's a link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-Code_Hollywood

Hope that helps!

[klondike]

Good job, Lynn!
You tackled a big, tough, multi-faceted subject, analyzed it quickly & intelligently, covered the social & historical impacts, and, without dwelling too long anywhere, touched on all the 'big' points while bringing everything to a logical conclusion in less than three minutes worth of reading.
Where were you when I was napping my way through History class ?!!

P.S: Just realized, there's a great correlation here to the subplot of the 'editing priest' in Cinema Paradiso, and the running of the cobbled 'romance reel' at the film's climax!

[intothenitrate]

Hi Kingme. You've come across a pretty interesting subject.

I first became aware of this "genre" when TCM aired a series of films to mark the publication of film historian Mick LaSalle's book "Complicated Women." He focuses on female screen personalities playing characters that step outside of "expected behavior" and wind up being heroes in the final reel. He goes on to explain how, after the code was strictly enforced [post July 1934], female characters in films became more one-dimensional--the "good" ones prevailing and the "bad" ones being punished. Before the code, these characters presented a somewhat "blended morality." Marital infidelity, suggestions of pre-marital sex, and money for favors were commonplace.

This period between the advent of sound and the enforcement of the code also overlapped with the darkest years of the Depression. Film studios were hurting too. So, to get people to part with their precious few nickels, studios made [certain] pictures that packed a lot of "juice" into their stories. Some of them can still shock you.

Today, a lot of people think that "old black and white films" are just variations of Andy Hardy. Pre-codes reveal degrees of complexity and sophistication that were suppressed for decades.

And speaking of on-screen kisses, I've gotten into the habit (I know, it's odd) of counting when the hero and heroine go into the clinch. It rarely goes over four seconds. [This was one of the production code rules]. But the next time you watch Red Dust, check out when Gable first kisses Mary Astor. It goes on and on. The temperature in the theaters certainly must have gone up a few degrees when that one played.

[Rita Hayworth]

Hi Kingme. You've come across a pretty interesting subject.

I first became aware of this "genre" when TCM aired a series of films to mark the publication of film historian Mick LaSalle's book "Complicated Women." He focuses on female screen personalities playing characters that step outside of "expected behavior" and wind up being heroes in the final reel. He goes on to explain how, after the code was strictly enforced [post July 1934], female characters in films became more one-dimensional--the "good" ones prevailing and the "bad" ones being punished. Before the code, these characters presented a somewhat "blended morality." Marital infidelity, suggestions of pre-marital sex, and money for favors were commonplace.

This period between the advent of sound and the enforcement of the code also overlapped with the darkest years of the Depression. Film studios were hurting too. So, to get people to part with their precious few nickels, studios made [certain] pictures that packed a lot of "juice" into their stories. Some of them can still shock you.

Today, a lot of people think that "old black and white films" are just variations of Andy Hardy. Pre-codes reveal degrees of complexity and sophistication that were suppressed for decades.

And speaking of on-screen kisses, I've gotten into the habit (I know, it's odd) of counting when the hero and heroine go into the clinch. It rarely goes over four seconds. [This was one of the production code rules]. But the next time you watch Red Dust, check out when Gable first kisses Mary Astor. It goes on and on. The temperature in the theaters certainly must have gone up a few degrees when that one played.

Thank You Very Much ... I understand now.

[Rita Hayworth]

Kingme,
In the late 1920s, in the wake of various scandals that captivated the country (both good and bad), there was a great deal of talk of censorship and the movies. To keep the church and the feds at bay, the moguls who ran the studios decided that self-policing would be preferable to government and/or church involvement.

They agreed upon a code in 1930 but, thankfully for movie-goers then and all of us today, the code was not enforced and there were no penalties for not towing the line. They hired Will Hays, the former Postmaster General. Luckily, Hays ruled with a lax hand. This allowed such wonderful films such as Red Dust, Three on a Match, Scarface, etc. It was an era where subject matter was often treated in an adult manner and films dealt with prostitution, drug abuse, violence in an adult and realistic manner, not to mention the lingerie or lack thereof that passed as costumes.

By 1934, with Decency Leagues, the Church and conservatives of all stripes were threatening Hollywood with mandated censorship. The moguls once again floated the idea of self-censorship. Reminded that they had already done that and subject matter was still out of control, the moguls regrouped and decided that in order to keep the church and the government out of the picture, the Motion Picture Code had to have teeth and had to have consequences, monetary consequences like fines.

They hired Joseph Breen to do the actual enforcing. Though the Code is often called the Hays Code it was, in fact, the Breen Code, that brought an end to the Pre-Code era in 1934. Breen took his job as moral watchdog very serious and put together a list of of do's and don'ts. Gone were the loose women, sharing of the same bed, the loose moral code of the street, swear words. Breen attached fines, hefty fines, to scripts that did not follow his code and all scripts had to be vetted by his office before shooting could be completed. David Selznick had to pay such a fine in order for Rhett Butler to deliver his famous final line to Scarlett in Gone with the Wind.

Married couples slept in twin beds, suicide was to be avoided at all costs and if characters broke the law, they had to pay a price by either dying or going to prison. Talkie films that had been initially released during the Pre-Code era had to be recut and submitted to the Breen Office for approval before they could be reissued on the bottom of double bills. That's how Barbara Stanwyck's Baby Face was truncated. Gone was the footage of her father selling her to other men, her sleeping her way to the top, etc.

The original version was recut and for over seventy years the original version was thought lost. Luckily, a few years ago, the original uncut version was found in a mismarked can in the archive of the Library of Congress.

TCM helped with the restoration and ran both versions so that audiences could see for themselves the changes that films had to undergo to conform to the Breen Code.

There is a great book by Mark Vieira called Sin and Soft Focus that goes into great depth about Pre-Code films.

In the meantime, here's a link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-Code_Hollywood

Hope that helps!

Another big thank you for Lzcutter - When you written Motion Picture Code - and the excellent example of Gone with the Wind of which I seen that movie at least 6 times in my life - and all ... Its now making some sense around here. Nice, Very Nice Job with the detailed description of what is a precodes

Another thanks for Klondike for supporting Lzcutter.
I know both of you are moderators - sometimes we all need a simple understanding and a moment to reflect it.

[pvitari]

Hm, I submitted a message to this thread and it seems to have been gobbled up by gremlins or maybe the ghost of Joseph Breen.

Let's see if I can reconstruct it...

First of all, the cast of the great musical A Day in Hollywood/A Night in the Ukraine recites (and tap dances) The Production Code for you, so you don't have to read it. ;) Or tap dance to it. :)

[youtube][/youtube]

I'm still thrilled that I saw the original production of this musical way back in 1980 or 1981. ;) (Don't remember the exact date.)

Kingme, a great way to start with Pre-Code films are the three TCM Forbidden Hollywood DVD collections, the second of which includes a documentary, Thou Shalt Not: Sex, Sin, and Censorship in Pre-Code Hollywood, as well as Universal's Pre-Code Hollywood Collection set. These four sets are an excellent representative sampling of Pre-Code Hollywood and what those films were like.

Two books you migiht want to read: The Dame in the Kimono: Hollywood, Censorship, and the Production Code, by Leonard J. Leff and Jerold L. Simmons, and Pre-Code Hollywood: Sex, Immorality, and Insurrection in American Cinema; 1930-1934, by Thomas Doherty.

Pre-Code films treated sexuality and violence in adult and subversive ways, so no wonder the bluenoses got their backs up about them. They're pretty strong stuff, even nowadays -- in fact, I think they're far more honest and real than today's violence and nudity ridden films, which, at least in most studio product today, are geared towards the fantasies of teenagers. Maybe because the Pre-code era coincided with the worst of the Depression, and teenagers back then were looked upon as young adults rather than existing in a separate state somewhere between childhood and adulthood.

It is amazing, though, what filmmakers could slip in even under the Production Code!

If you want to see an example of how a star's films could be neutered by the Production Code, watch a Jimmy Cagney film from before the Production Code era, and then watch his first film under the Code, Here Comes the Navy. The difference is apparent. :)

[charliechaplinfan]

Finding out about precodes for me was like finding out about a big secret. I'd seen a couple, Red Dust is one that comes to mind but I'd always shied away from the very early talkies because I'd thought they would be static and that it perhaps took a few years for talkies to 'bed in' so to speak. Yet the stories from this time can be so realistic, they can be a social commentary of the time and to my surprise, women were not all virtuous and for a few years they enjoyed being that way.

I'd recommend Mick LaSalle's book Complicated Women. If you can't get hold of it some actresses who's films are worth looking out for from this period. Norma Shearer, Joan Crawford, Miriam Hopkins, Kay Francis, Barbara Stanwyck, Mae Clarke, Jean Harlow, Constance Bennett, Helen Hayes, Ruth Chatterton, Claudette Colbert, Sylvia Sidney, Clara Bow. The list is long and I'm sure to have missed plenty out but it's a good place to start

[intothenitrate]

I would add to that Employees Entrance and Skyscraper Souls. Jaw dropping!

[Rita Hayworth]

Kingme,
In the late 1920s, in the wake of various scandals that captivated the country (both good and bad), there was a great deal of talk of censorship and the movies. To keep the church and the feds at bay, the moguls who ran the studios decided that self-policing would be preferable to government and/or church involvement.

They agreed upon a code in 1930 but, thankfully for movie-goers then and all of us today, the code was not enforced and there were no penalties for not towing the line. They hired Will Hays, the former Postmaster General. Luckily, Hays ruled with a lax hand. This allowed such wonderful films such as Red Dust, Three on a Match, Scarface, etc. It was an era where subject matter was often treated in an adult manner and films dealt with prostitution, drug abuse, violence in an adult and realistic manner, not to mention the lingerie or lack thereof that passed as costumes.

By 1934, with Decency Leagues, the Church and conservatives of all stripes were threatening Hollywood with mandated censorship. The moguls once again floated the idea of self-censorship. Reminded that they had already done that and subject matter was still out of control, the moguls regrouped and decided that in order to keep the church and the government out of the picture, the Motion Picture Code had to have teeth and had to have consequences, monetary consequences like fines.

They hired Joseph Breen to do the actual enforcing. Though the Code is often called the Hays Code it was, in fact, the Breen Code, that brought an end to the Pre-Code era in 1934. Breen took his job as moral watchdog very serious and put together a list of of do's and don'ts. Gone were the loose women, sharing of the same bed, the loose moral code of the street, swear words. Breen attached fines, hefty fines, to scripts that did not follow his code and all scripts had to be vetted by his office before shooting could be completed. David Selznick had to pay such a fine in order for Rhett Butler to deliver his famous final line to Scarlett in Gone with the Wind.

Married couples slept in twin beds, suicide was to be avoided at all costs and if characters broke the law, they had to pay a price by either dying or going to prison. Talkie films that had been initially released during the Pre-Code era had to be recut and submitted to the Breen Office for approval before they could be reissued on the bottom of double bills. That's how Barbara Stanwyck's Baby Face was truncated. Gone was the footage of her father selling her to other men, her sleeping her way to the top, etc.

The original version was recut and for over seventy years the original version was thought lost. Luckily, a few years ago, the original uncut version was found in a mismarked can in the archive of the Library of Congress.

TCM helped with the restoration and ran both versions so that audiences could see for themselves the changes that films had to undergo to conform to the Breen Code.

There is a great book by Mark Vieira called Sin and Soft Focus that goes into great depth about Pre-Code films.

In the meantime, here's a link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-Code_Hollywood

Hope that helps!

Another big thank you for Lzcutter - When you written Motion Picture Code - and the excellent example of Gone with the Wind of which I seen that movie at least 6 times in my life - and all ... Its now making some sense around here. Nice, Very Nice Job with the detailed description of what is a precodes

Another thanks for Klondike for supporting Lzcutter.
I know both of you are moderators - sometimes we all need a simple understanding and a moment to reflect it.

There is a great book by Mark Vieira called Sin and Soft Focus that goes into great depth about Pre-Code films.

In the meantime, here's a link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-Code_Hollywood

Hope that helps!

Lzcutter - The main library of Seattle has that book - and my friend that works downtown will get for me on Monday and ask for extended loan so I can take the time to read everything ... I'm also using the Internet and that link ... talk about rules and regulations here. Great Link.

I wanted to let you know that. I have a tremendous thirst for knowledge.

[klondike]

The main library of Seattle has that book - and my friend that works downtown will get for me on Monday and ask for extended loan so I can take the time to read everything ...

The Seattle Public Library is such a great institution, and one that truly exists first & foremost for the benefit of the people!
When we used to live on Vashon Island, and my wife worked for Metro (the Seattle public transit authority), I would often ferry-over to have lunch with the Mrs. (often @ Ivar's on the Pier), and on those days I'd always schedule extra time inside my commute to visit iconic locations like Pioneer Square, & Pike Place Market, & Ruby Montana's, and of course, the Seattle Public Library.
One could lose an hour, almost, just glomming on everything in their Margaret Hamilton commemorative display case!

[Rita Hayworth]

Kingme,

There is a great book by Mark Vieira called Sin and Soft Focus that goes into great depth about Pre-Code films.

In the meantime, here's a link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-Code_Hollywood

Hope that helps!

Lzcutter - I just finished reading that book - I managed to have Seattle Public Library to run me down a copy of that book and they mailed to my address - I asked them if I can have it for a month - no problems - that book outlined it perfectly - and just as you wrote in your previous post - I understand everything now. I even went back to this thread numerous of times in the past month to help me to understand the problems, the perils, and most importantly censorship, guidelines to follow, and the code was designed to keep everything in check so that the General Public will not be offended in any shape or form whatsoever. That book really hit a home run, with all of you members contributed to this thread that I started in the first place ... I gained a lot of knowledge in the past month and Lzcutter and the host of other members - I wanted to thank you all for educating me on this insightful subject matter. The link was very helpful too. I even had it bookmarked for future reference. So, in short - my humble thanks.