At Random

[mrsl]

OCTOMOM

Okay folks. Here's a possible question for a government health program.

I love my kids, I worked hard to raise them to be good people after my divorce, but I only had four of them. If anyone had tried to take them away, I would have scratched their eyes out but . . .

If we had a government health program and it included the option of allowing this woman to carry all those babies or not, where would you be?

I would say absolutely not, because look how it is and everyone knew it, they are fed, clothed, and bedded by the state. Naturally the kids don't like her, she's probably yelling and/or crying all the time and has no time to bond.

I do believe in abortion depending on the circumstances, always in rape no matter by a stranger or a relative. Also 15 and younger who have no idea what they're getting into. Over twenty absolutely not.

Any comments?
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[srowley75]

Show of hands, please:

How many of you who came of age in the 60s are sick to death of this Woodstock anniversary nonsense (not to mention the endless docus about Chas. Manson last week), and the pervasive thesis from the current media that we were all delusional but quaint freaks, far inferior to the movers and shakers of today.

I propose a film montage which juxtaposes Woodstock's dancing hippies with the drugged out and half-dead dancers at Studio 54, moshers at a heavy metal concert, teenies screeching at Brittany and the Jonas Bros, Cher and Madonna competing to see who can wear the least onstage, and thugs pumping their fists while some rapper curses, postures, and forces words to rhyme. The narrator should point out that in time, every one of these images will be a source of embarrassment to its participants. Then we should all vote on which one looks the stupidest.

Sorry to come to this so late...

I must have missed the media's inference that the Woodstock generation was inferior or even comparable to the generations that came of age during the 1970s until today. But if such a comparison was indeed made, it's certainly surprising to me. I can't remember ever viewing a retrospective on Woodstock that doesn't depict those albeit icky-looking youngsters nostalgically through a rose-colored lens and lament what followed. (But then I tend to skip television commentaries on topics such as these because [1] if they're done by a major network for a half-hour broadcast, rarely does the report extend beyond generalities you'd find in an encyclopedia or sensational trivia bordering on urban legend and [2] if they're longer, you're forced to sit through a cheapo-looking reenactment starring actors with bad wigs, interspersed with "experts" who do little more than offer commentary that isn't at all insightful or original.)

That aside, if anyone seeks to disparage those hippies, I would think that a comparison of the bands and singers that appeared at Woodstock and the mainstream bands and singers popular among today's youth would be in order. Those hippies mightn't have had the greatest hygiene or fashion sense, but their overall taste in music (and, one assumes, their vocabulary) was better. In fact, I know quite a few young people who today cherish the music of those bands, so if anything those musicians have stood the test of time.

On the subject of Manson: I'll concede that sensationalism, which appeals to the lowest common denominator (and for the networks equals ratings and ad revenue), annoys me to an extent (and I say this as one who loves grindhouse cinema). Yet I do appreciate well-written crime documentaries, books, etc. for several reasons. They inform the viewer as to how a mind becomes warped, emphasizing the need for vigilance when certain signs present themselves during childhood and beyond (and I might add, encouraging people to treat their fellowman with compassion and dignity, as they would like to be treated, rather than with contempt). They provide insight into how these monsters snare their victims, thereby promoting public safety (in today's world, I suppose this translates into teaching people to maintain their personal boundaries rather than assuming that every individual who uses the world wide web is a scholar and a lady/gentleman. You tend to doubt people can still be that stupid until you realize that there are people in this world who pick up the phone when telemarketers call and actually TALK to them).

I watched the new MSNBC doc on the Manson family and thought it shabby though not entirely sensational. Granted, the mere presence of re-enactments immediately clued me in to what type of audience the producers were hoping to snag, and they were badly done to the extent that I believe any small-town repertory group could've done better. Significant time was devoted to the grisliness of the slayings and other lurid details about the lives of the Manson family, but I appreciated the examination of how the Manson family fit the definition of a cult and how Manson accumulated "followers" (nothing I hadn't heard, but I will admit I hadn't seen it on a documentary before) and does so even today. This documentary also brought viewers up to date on some of what had transpired in the lives of the murderers since their conviction, and what struck me was how ironically unfortunate it was for these murderers that California abolished the death penalty and denied them their martyrdom. It's entirely fitting that 4 (Manson himself not included) have endured to eventually come to terms with what they did and publicly suffer guilt and shame because of it.

[srowley75]

And of course, just like most other "celebrities" who crave our attention and want to live out their pathetic lives in public, she resents the paparazzi and the curiosity seekers.

Speaking of which...

Mom and Sis continue to watch Jon and Kate even after this year's debacle. At this point, both have slidden beyond mere momentary train wreck status and are now well on their respective ways to eventually becoming immortalized in 8 varied Mommie/Daddie Dearest-style books once these children come of age. Kate has always borne a certain wild-eyed, frenzied demeanor and siren-shrill voice that has left me to both question her sanity and feel anguish for these children, but in the past month or so Jon's managed to outperform her on the obnoxiousness scale and do enough to justify termination of his parental rights (which I'm completely convinced he's wanted all along). Anyway, the preview spots for this past week's episode showed Kate taking the kids aboard a battleship and protesting far too much about the paparazzi (she tells one of the children to aim a gun at them).

Remember that boy that made the news about fifteen years ago for wanting to divorce his parents? Seems reasonable in this situation. And given these two and their lunacy, if I were a judge, I'd hear the case. And I'd entertain the plaintiffs suing the defendants for punitive damages besides.

I recall what Judge Judy, a former NYC Family Court judge, said in an interview when asked about Nutty Nadya. She said she feared that this woman, who professes to be very religious, would use the excuse of God commanding her to do away with her children and thus relieve herself of the burden she foolishly imposed upon herself. It's not a fanciful as it sounds, folks. It happens all the time.

Maybe one of them will do away with her. That happens quite often as well.

[klondike]

if they're longer, you're forced to sit through a cheapo-looking reenactment starring actors with bad wigs, interspersed with "experts" who do little more than offer commentary that isn't at all insightful or original.)

Blame my neighbor over in Walpole for that documentary trend; I don't want to drop any names here, but I think his mailbox proclaims: K BURNS - Florentine Studios.

[jdb1]

I wonder what programs which of us have been watching about this Woodstock thing. Being of that generation, of course my mind is slowly eroding at this point, and I can't remember exactly where I saw these things, but my impression was that I was being dissed for being a dirty, lazy, irresponsible music lover. I saw very little of the idealism so pervasive among young people at the time, a school of thought that was certainly reflected in most of the music of the era.

But, of course, this is television, and you can be sure of attracting the 14-34 male audience by showing bare-breasted girls with flowers in their hair writhing in the mud of Woodstock. Obviously, the TV powers that be feel that nobody wants to see fully clothed earnest young women discussing politics and organizing communities. There may have been one or two pretty ones doing that too, you know, and they did it to the same music that everyone else was listening to. Apparently, having a social conscience, even if you are good to look at, is of no interest any more.

And I heartily agree with you about today's movies showing "hippies" with bad wigs. What's up with that? Why can't the actors grow their hair out to do the movie? Well, maybe it's just one more way that today's generation can show contempt for all of us dirty hippies.

[charliechaplinfan]

Anne, I think your question regarding fertility can be widened to include 'up to what age' the papers here are full of stories of older women (60plus) not all of them with partners going to fertility clinics, usually in Eastern Europe. It's hit the headlines again after one woman died a year after giving birth and her child is now an orphan.

I'm pretty sure our clinics would not put 8 embryos into a womb, I think 6 is the limit.

Abortion is a pretty contentious issue in the US. It's been legal here for many years. I won't offer an opinion because it's not black and white but I will offer this. A friend who has gone back to work as a nurse has now been put on the antenatal and early pregnancy units. The worst part of her job is the late abortions, up to 24 weeks that she has to perform, those babies are removed from the mother and left in a kidney dish to die, noone is allowed to save them even if the fight valiantly themselves. These same nurses can see these women coming back more than once aborting babies not feotuses.

What kind of topsy turvy world do we find ourselves in when some women are getting rid of babies and others paying through the nose just to conceive.

[silentscreen]

The late term abortions make me physically ill. I'm surprised that anyone would do it! Every one talks about the rights of the mother, but it seems that the innocent babes who didn't ask to be born have no rights at all. I couldn't work under those circumstances- it's murder plain and simple. We treat our pets better!

[srowley75]

I have a friend who used to constantly lament that you need a license to operate a car, but any pair of individuals (responsible and sane or not) can conceive a child.

I suppose this will offend those in our number who married young, but the more I see of individuals under 21 conceiving multiple children, the more the fiend in me would like to see a zero population growth law that requires any young man or woman who makes 2 children before age 21 be snipped. I just despise the idea of children (and mostly ignorant ones) having children - we've got enough screwed up people in the world as it is and we don't need more youngsters brought up in squalor by pre-adults with no job training who aren't even responsible enough to be trusted with a goldfish, let alone a completely vulnerable and fragile human being. The stats I've heard would indicate that the trend is shifting downward, but from what I see around me and in the news and on the tube, I struggle to believe that.

And while I'm already halfway out on this limb, let me just say that although was brought up to believe that abortion was always wrong, these days I tend to question or disbelieve everything I was taught as a young person, and this is just one more issue I've begun to struggle with. Practically speaking, is it better that a child be brought up in poverty by an idiot who will likely neglect or resent (and possibly abuse) him or her, or is it better to terminate the pregnancy early and prevent a lifetime of misery (and get real, it will be) for all concerned? Despite the arguments that drag in adoption as an alternative, given what I've lived to see in my relatively brief 33 years, I don't raise my voice to judge so quickly any more.

-S.

[silentscreen]

I'm not talking about early abortion, but late term abortion. In any case, early abortion is still the termination of life. You can argue all you want about fetusus and otherwise, but concieved life is the life of an individual. It is murder in my books, and you can argue otherwise, but it all comes down to the same thing. Catholics and conservative Protestants believe the same thing. Catholics maybe even more, because according to a Catholic friend of mine, you can be excommuicated from the church if you have an abortion. I'm not Catholic, so I don't know, but maybe Alison can help me out here. One of the reasons (but not the only.) that I didn't vote for Obama was because of this issue. I have basic beliefs, and I want my President to have those same fundimental beliefs, because without those, how can we be in step on others?

I have a son that I can't imagine life without, and he has two daughters that I wouldn't be without either. How can you explain these things? You can't if they were never even there to start with.

[mrsl]

I hear you srowley and although I've got 30 years on you, that doesn't make me all-knowing either. Which is why I specified a few terms. There are a lot more to consider though. What Charlie Chaplin fan describes is awful, I couldn't possibly work there. Many babies at 5 months live with some help, as a patient I'm afraid I would be kicked out of the hospital.

Judith: LIving in the Chicago area during Woodstock, I have to admit I saw only wild eyed hippies and crazies hopping around on the news reports. If things were different, nobody made that clear at all. I saw acres of open land with loud music playing, people smoking pot in small groups, and little kids ages 3 - 5 running around with seemingly no supervision. Again, this is what the news reporters showed, and those camera-men know how to hold the camera to get just the right thing in focus. It could have been 3 or 4 couples letting their kids run around while they all watched them, but the camera might have caught people on the other side of the kids smoking and ignoring the kids, but it would have looked like they were the parents.

That's the kind of news reporting that turned me off to news reports a long time ago. Now except during election time or a crisis I rarely watch the evening news because it is so rigged and phoney.
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[charliechaplinfan]

It's probably true that you can still get excommunicated from the Catholic church for an abortion but who would tell their priest these days.

I'm in a quandary about abortion, it's been legal here for 40 years. No woman should be made to bear the child of a rape, I'm certain about that. Neither should a woman be made to bear a child that would endanger her physical health. Mental health, I'm a bit grey in this area, the child could be adopted but on the other side the mother's mental health may deteriorate too.

Now I get stuck. I am a Catholic, I should leave it there. If I did I'd comdemn every teenage girl to bear her child even though it was conceived on the cusp of adulthood and although my bugbear isn't the young that bear children but everyone who bears a child who doesn't truly want it and cherish it and provide for it on every level.

One thing I am certain on is that the legal limit for abortion is 24 weeks and that should be radically reduced. How many weeks does a mother need to make up her mind? Exceptions should only be made if the mother was in grave danger.

If only prospective parents were put through tests beforehand to see that they have the necessary nuturing skills for parenthood. Even to adopt a cat you need a home visit before you can bring it home.

[jdb1]

Judith: LIving in the Chicago area during Woodstock, I have to admit I saw only wild eyed hippies and crazies hopping around on the news reports. If things were different, nobody made that clear at all. I saw acres of open land with loud music playing, people smoking pot in small groups, and little kids ages 3 - 5 running around with seemingly no supervision. Again, this is what the news reporters showed, and those camera-men know how to hold the camera to get just the right thing in focus. It could have been 3 or 4 couples letting their kids run around while they all watched them, but the camera might have caught people on the other side of the kids smoking and ignoring the kids, but it would have looked like they were the parents.

That's the kind of news reporting that turned me off to news reports a long time ago. Now except during election time or a crisis I rarely watch the evening news because it is so rigged and phoney.
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Of course there were irresponsible young people then, just as there are irresponsible young people now. My point was that the lurid and "tsk-tsk" side of the 60s is just about all that is being shown now, and it gives the younger generation the wrong idea about what was going on then Dirty girls with stringy long hair, flowers painted on their faces, and naked babies dancing around them was not the be all and end all of the young in the 1960s. I wasn't like that, and few of my friends were that extreme. I didn't even go to Woodstock, because my friends and I were worried about how crowded and uncomfortable it would be, and it turns out we were right. At that time, you could hear great live music from those performers just about anywhere, so the idea of this overblown event wasn't so attractive to us. That's another thing: they make it like Woodstock was the only live concert that ever happened during that decade. Nope, not by a longshot.

[ChiO]

it gives the younger generation the wrong idea about what was going on then Dirty girls with stringy long hair

That reminds of when a friend returned home from her first year in college and a "friend" of her mother said, "Your daughter is nothing but a long-haired dirty hippie." Her mother's response: "Barbara is not dirty."

[mrsl]

Judith:

You and I are talking from different ends about the same middle. Maybe that's when I was awakened by the news or possibly when I realized I was a responsible adult, but when I saw mainly outrageous things being reported, I decided to find another avenue of news reporting. The newspapers did that for a while, but eventually they fell to basically the same problem. I went to two concerts that were simply singing and music and a little dancing in the aisle, my kids all went to concerts but thinking about it, they never talked much about them so I'm guessing they had a little to hold back, but that's all way back in the past. It's simply as I said, cameramen catch what they want to and it's not always what the photographed person would want to be shown.
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[charliechaplinfan]

I'm led to believe that Americans are boycotting Scottish goods after the decision of the Scottish government to return the Lockerbie bomber to Libya.

I don't know all the details here. There are a certain section of the justice system that believes he is innocent but the evidence hasn't been put forward to prove this. He is suffering terminal prostrate cancer, this isn't a valid reason for letting out a killer but if he is innocent convene a retrial whilst he is still alive, get this important evidence before the judiciary and let the people know why this man is innocent. As I understand it because he has been released we will never get to know the reason he might be innocent.

So the American public will continue to think that our justice system is soft. Rightly or wrongly, we will never know.