Ingmar Bergman

[ChiO]

After about a 35 year hiatus, I watched THROUGH A GLASS DARKLY yesterday. I anxiously await the patient guidance of Bergman aficionados.

[charliechaplinfan]

ChiO, I just watched Through a Glass Darkly, I'm becoming a fan very quickly, I'm recognisng some of Bergman's stock company of actors. I thought Through a Glass Darkly had compelling characters, each illicting some sympathy from the viewer. Max Von Sydow takes on a very different role from those I've been used to, he's so very touching as he husband, very tender, understanding, taking his frustrations out on the father, quite rightly and being so touching and patient with Karin. Minus, on the cusp of adulthood, tortured by his emerging feelings of sexuality and with his sister's illness. Karin, plagued by madness, living in two worlds, I don't know how medically accurate Bergman's portrayal of a woman plagued by mental ill health is but it very compelling viewing. David the father, calm, detached, not able to face up to his daughter inheriting his wife's madnes. The only bright spot is that David might be coming out of his reticence and might become willing to help his son through his despair. Is Minus just suffering from teenage angst, will he be able to cope with the guilt of what he and Karin did? Should he have stopped himself or was it some comfort to her? God portrayed as a spider, trying to penetrate, well I bet the religious world loves this film but who knows what images appear in the mind of the afflicted and where indeed they come from? I'm completely intrigued by the film and absolutely taken with the way Bergam filmed it. Making the island holiday spot seem very bleak and isolated yet so very beautiful and romantic at the same time. i loved his use of Bach too.

I'm sure there's much more to say but it's late here

[Mr. Arkadin]

It's been over five years since I last watched Through a Glass Darkly, so I'm not able to (in my view) adequately discuss this one. I did talk to Monsieur ChiO this afternoon to compare notes and see if my remembered perceptions were accurate with a recent viewing. If not, consider it the overactive imagination of a man bored out of his skull, refinishing hardwood floors all afternoon.

The concept behind this film and the other two in the series (Winter Light [1961] and The Silence [1961]) is the remoteness, or perceived silence of God. As a film, Through a Glass is problematic for me because it seems more like a wordy discourse than a piece of cinema. That’s not to say it doesn’t have some striking visual moments, but that the characters are too knowing and stagebound to be believable in my eyes. I don’t fault the actors, but the script, which seemed to overemphasize every tiny point to distraction. Of the three films, I much prefer Winter Light, as it seems the least calculating of the trilogy and works best as a movie.

Bergman’s ideas of Christianity are often troubling at best. God and his creation are often substituted for each other, and in this film, the father’s unconcern and seeming interest in Karin’s disease rather than his suffering child, are linked with a perception of God as neglectful and even malicious. Therefore, Karin’s imagining of God as a spider is an extension of how she perceives God through her earthly father. Is Bergman suggesting that this is an accurate view of God, or that because the film centers on mental illness and a dysfunctional family, perhaps Man in his fallen nature cannot hope to understand God?

I think a key lies in the title, which comes from 1 Corinthians 13:12 :

For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. (King James version)

The word glass is translated mirror from the Greek (incorrect in the KJV), as shown in this text:

For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known. (New American Standard version)

By using only the first part of the verse, Bergman might be suggesting that to try and find the Divine by looking at ourselves, or to other human beings, is failure. This view of God is not truth, but a warped and distorted image—one that can lead to madness.

[charliechaplinfan]

Thanks for leaving that post Mr Arkadin, I know how busy you must be at the moment. It's given me some new perspectives to mull over. I can believe that Karin sees God as a spider and not as the deity she expects, this could be an extension of how her father behaves with her. I can't dislike her father for all his neglect. I see him as unable rather than unwilling, even though Martin is blunt with him as to his neglect of Karin and we can see also of Minus.

I couldn't quite work out what was going on in the first few minutes, the start is a very happy family coming from the sea after enjoying themselves swimming. I don't know whether the confusion I felt was intended, it seems like Martin is Karin's husband but looked old enough to be her father, they seem so mismatched, Karin is very youthful whereas Martin appears to have entered middle age.

I liked all the actors, I thought they did a tremendous job. I understand why you would feel it was stagey, I think the art direction and use of location lessened that feeling for me.

[Mr. Arkadin]

I agree that David (the father) is a troubled man who does not seem to intentionally seek to be neglectful. He has problems of his own. The ending sequence where he talks with his son about "having something to hold on to" seems speak to the idea of grounding ethics and principals, which none of these characters seemed to have.

Are God and love the same thing? I certainly think so, but we as humans have defined love as Eros, not Agape, which could be seen as the source of all the problems in this film.

[charliechaplinfan]

I've just watched The Seventh Seal which personally doesn't resonate with me as much as the previous films discussed here (how strange considering it is one of the better known). God's existence and compassion is mulled over so memorably in this film, yet I prefer the shorter time period of Through a Glass Darkly. I think God does mean love, although I'm not convinced that Bergman believes this.

[Mr. Arkadin]

I cannot discuss The Seventh Seal as I'm working on an essay of the film, but here's my old Passion of Anna thread, which somehow got turned into a discourse on TSS:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=3396

[jdb1]

Since quite a few here, not just on this thread, have said they are new to Bergman, I wanted to point out his long-standing interest (some might say obssession) in the Christian faith and religion was with him from the very beginning. Here's an excerpt from Bergman's bio on Biography.com:

Bergman was the son of a Lutheran pastor and frequently remarked on the importance of his childhood background in the development of his ideas and moral preoccupations. Even when the context of his film characters' sufferings is not overtly religious, they are always implicitly engaged in a search for moral standards of judgment, a rigorous examination of action and motive, in terms of good and bad, right and wrong, which seems particularly appropriate to someone brought up in a strictly religious home. Another important influence in his childhood was the religious art Bergman encountered, particularly the primitive yet graphic representations of Bible stories and parables found in rustic Swedish churches, which fascinated him and gave him a vital interest in the visual presentation of ideas, especially the idea of evil as embodied in the devil.

Quite simplistic, considering his oeuvre, but the themes of God the Father and Father the Father run through just about everything he did. However, this account leaves something out: From other accounts I've read, and from what I've read/heard Bergman himself say in interviews, his father was a cold, remote and undemonstrative man. It must have been very confusing for a boy to be taught that God hears all prayers, when the man he saw as God's representative was, for him, so unreachable. The most fully-drawn portrait of that man can be seen in the character of the cold and cruel stepfather/bishop in Fanny and Alexander. It's therefore hardly surprising that Bergman's characters are so frequently tormented by their inability to find any solace in their religion (ritual) or their faith. The deity they seek won't answer. I do think that Mr. A's comment about the conflict between earthly and spiritual love is most apt; most of Bergman's characters are either willing, or forced, to accept the eartlhy variety, because they are unable, through circumstance or their own limitations, to achieve the other.

[ChiO]

Question:

Quite simplistic, considering his oeuvre, but the themes of God the Father and Father the Father run through just about everything he did. However, this account leaves something out: From other accounts I've read, and from what I've read/heard Bergman himself say in interviews, his father was a cold, remote and undemonstrative man. It must have been very confusing for a boy to be taught that God hears all prayers, when the man he saw as God's representative was, for him, so unreachable.

Answer: Soren Kierkegaard. "I see it all perfectly; there are two possible situations - one can either do this or that. My honest opinion and my friendly advice is this: do it or do not do it - you will regret both."

The Kierkegaard quotation even more apt to my reaction to THROUGH THE GLASS DARKLY: "How absurd men are! They never use the liberties they have, they demand those they do not have. They have freedom of thought, they demand freedom of speech." I felt that Bergman had some beautiful thoughts (assisted greatly by Sven Nykvist), but unfortunately demanded to say them, redundantly and not as strikingly. As Mr. Arkadin wrote:

As a film, Through a Glass is problematic for me because it seems more like a wordy discourse than a piece of cinema. That’s not to say it doesn’t have some striking visual moments, but that the characters are too knowing and stagebound to be believable in my eyes. I don’t fault the actors, but the script, which seemed to overemphasize every tiny point to distraction.

Like Mr. Arkadin, I found it uncinematic. As exquisite as some of the shots were, I saw photographs, not moving pictures, and the script sucked any possible life right out of them.

It did cause me, however, to think about why I so adore Dreyer and Bresson when, on the surface, there are similarities to what Bergman does with THROUGH THE GLASS DARKLY. I could only conclude that their moving pictures add depth of meaning(s) to any dialogue, whereas Bergman, here at least, has his characters talk over and merely reiterate what is in front of the eye.

[ChiO]

In the "For What It's Worth" category, Godard named THROUGH THE GLASS DARKLY as #3 on his list of "Ten Best Films of 1962."

For context, #10 was RIDE THE HIGH COUNTRY (Peckinpah), #8 was SWEET BIRD OF YOUTH (Brooks), #6 was VIVRE SA VIE (Godard -- hey, if you don't think your own film is deserving, why make the movie?), #4 was JULES ET JIM (Truffaut)and #1 was HATARI! (Hawks).

[charliechaplinfan]

I'm thinking that you've watched Through a Glass Darkly more than once and it is a film in which the holes appear bigger on a second viewing. I'm relatively new to Bergman but not to world cinema. I found the film really effective, yet your posts have made me think again, it is theatrical, I could easily see it being performed on stage, my mind wants to twin it with works by Tennessee Williams, Streetcar and the Glass Menagarie are the two that spring to mind, not completely sure as to why. There is an obvious parallel of the madness of Karin and the madness of Blanche.

I've kept meaning to ask about the name Karin, it seems her name appears in all the Bergman films I've been watching. Is there a significance to the name or is it a coincidence that they are the films I've chosen to watch?

Thank you for the link to The Passion of Anna thread. I've got The Passion of Anna on my rental list and will read it with interest when I've watched it. I did read the posts about the Seventh Seal, thanks for leaving that review Mr Arkadin, your points are mostly things I picked up on but when they are laid down in one post they make more sense.

The Seventh Seal has two very iconic images, the chess scene on the bridge and the dance of death at the end, I find the burning of the witch the most evocative of the time they lived in, I feel Bergman really brings the medieval world to life. I paid more attention to Jons this time, he was reality whereas the knight was in search of the spiritual. I didn't know the background details about Bergman being the son of a preacher although I knew that Fanny and Alexander was a personal movie for him, it does explain the theme of his films.

[Mr. Arkadin]

Persona (1966) will be playing on TCM this weekend. Maybe a good film for everyone (at least in the U.S.) to check out and discuss? I'm sure we could talk about this one til Xmas and barely scratch the surface!

[charliechaplinfan]

I've got this on my rental list, hopefully I'll get it about the same time it's screened in the US. I look forward to sharing thoughts on Persona.

[charliechaplinfan]

My rental service had sent me Winter Light to watch, the joy of a rental service you watch in the order they send them and not in the order they were made. Back to Winter Light, I think I liked this best of all. Possibly because the performances of the two leads, Gunnar Bjornstrand and Ingrid Thulin telling the tale of two lovers, their relationship with one another and the pastor's relationship with God. Max Von Sydow is amongst the cast, he doesn't have very much to say but his doubt mirrors the pastors and he gives a strong silent performance. A rather strange perm sets him apart from the other characters he's played before.

I think I understand Bergman a little more, key I think to this film is a line spoken to Ingrid Thulin 'God is love and love is God'. The pastor feels deserted by God, he feels his silence and can no longer give the spiritual fulfilment to his flock. He's pained by God's silence, he is sick with flu thorughout the film and it almost seems to a physical symptom of his spritual pain. He is visited by a married couple, the man Max Von Sydow will not talk but his wife tells the pastor the problem, his depression about the atom bomb and the Chinese and implied his thought of suicide. The pastor can not give the man the spiritual comfort he needs and the man promises to return. In the interim the pastor is visited by his lover, Ingrid Thulin, Miss Lundberg the spinster school teacher. Their's is a relationship with tension, she is anxious, needy wanting to be loved he is hesitant even distant with her. She has left a letter for the pastor to read later, when he reads it Ingrid Thulin appears on screen giving a monologue, very moving, a plea to the pastor to let her in, the viewer feels that he has probably heard this before only this time she has written it down, in all her dealings with him she sounds desperate. When the man returns the pastor can only tell him of his own doubt which came on after his own wife died. The man then goes and shots himself but not before the lovers meet by the altar and the schoolteacher physically soothes him. They are interrupted by a parishioner coming to tell them of the suicide.

[charliechaplinfan]

The pastor fels no guilt with this revelation, he gets into his car to visit the suicide site, the outdoor scenes having the sound of the biting wind left in. He's like no man of God I've eve rcome across, he is another man helping the others with their task, I can't remember seeing him say prayers over the dying man. From here he goes to the schoolteacher's to get some asprin, she fusses around him and finally they get to discussing their relationship, he's humiliated by the gossip, so marry her she says. He doesn't care for her enough, he tells her some hometruths many of which may be distorted by all of them hit home. He offers no apology for hurting her so, he goes to leave and then asks her to go with him which she does. This makes me feel that he has lost touch with the reality of being a person let alone a priest, God's silence troubles him but he is silent to the people who need him. He knows he hurts her but can't stop himself, he knows his words have caused the man to take his life rather than providing him with the spiritual lifeline, he withholds his comfort just as God does. Even more revealing is his visit to the dead man's hime, he is the deliverer of the news, the wife is pregnant, no asking her to sit down, no physical comfort or even words of sympathy, just would you like to read bible. He leaves her to tell her children, a pastor sadly neglectful of his pastoral duties. He returns to church, a different one, I think he gives services in two different churches but I might be wrong. The only member of the congregation is Miss Lundgren even though she doesn't believe although desperately wants to either believe in God or more importantly to her the pastor. Despite the lack of congregation, the pastor's worsening health, the service goes on.

I can't help thinking that the pastor's pursuit of God's voice and Miss Lundgren's seeking of the pastor's love and approval are mirrored and Miss Lundgren believes that if he could find God again he could find her. I notice more Ingmar Bergman's way of composing a scene and his use of location ie the church and the outdoors.

Going to have to ponder this film over night and come back tomorrow with more thought.