Welcome to JB Kaufman, Our Guest Star for Nov. 2010

[Lzcutter]

Here is the spot to post your questions for our guest, film historian (with a specialty on early Disney short subjects and films) and author, JB Kaufman. Please welcome him and post your questions here!

[MikeBSG]

Welcome, Mr. Kaufman.

The short Disney cartoons I'm most familiar with are the educational ones, or ones that ended up being shown in school: "Toot, Whistle, Plunk, Boom," one about traffic safety, one about fire safety, etc. "The Three Little Pigs" was shown in history class for the Great Depression.

What do you think are the top five Disney short cartoons for sheer entertainment/comedy?

[moirafinnie]

Thanks for visiting with us Mr. Kaufman!

I have been enchanted by the early Alice comedy shorts created by Disney and his associates in the '20s, starring Virginia Davis. The blend of live action and animation, inspired by Max Fleischer's Out of the Inkwell cartoons, are delightful, but I understand that they were produced under harrowing financial stresses.

Could you please comment on the pressures under which these shorts were made, the ongoing rivalry between Disney and Fleischer, and the lasting value of these early films? Thank you.

For those who haven't had a chance to see these shorts, below are two of the most charming from youtube (FYI: though these youtube uploads aren't the greatest in terms of viewing, there is a also a low cost DVD featuring much better prints of these and other little known films called Walt Disney Treasures - Disney Rarities - Celebrated Shorts, 1920s - 1960s which has an interview with "Alice" --Virginia Davis):

[JB Kaufman]

To MikeBSG: Thank you, but I don't think there's any way I could narrow the Disney shorts down to the five best. I can tell you that, in my opinion, the Disney shorts reached an all-time high in 1928-38. During that decade the studio produced close to 200 short cartoons, and almost all of them are outstanding; it's hard to find a disappointment in the bunch. That sounds like hype, but there's general agreement that that was a golden decade at the studio; new innovations seemed to crop up almost on a daily basis, and by 1938 they had completely transformed and redefined the art of the one-reel cartoon short. Personally I have a real fondness for the early black & white Silly Symphonies like Springtime (1929) and Night (1930); they have a great simplicity and directness. Then again, the studio hit a great period around 1934 with films like Grasshopper and the Ants and The Wise Little Hen, with catchy music, rich Technicolor, and appealing character animation. Russell Merritt and I, when we were working on a book about the Silly Symphonies, agreed that the series hit a peak of brilliance in its storytelling with two back-to-back entries in 1935: Who Killed Cock Robin? and Music Land. And around the end of the decade, as the studio was perfecting its lush "Rembrandt" style, you could see it in shorts like The Old Mill (1937) and Wynken, Blynken & Nod (1938). And that's not even mentioning the other parallel series, Mickey Mouse! The Mickey short The Band Concert (1935) belongs on anyone's list of the great cartoons of all time, but there are plenty of others. Some of my personal favorites are Mickey's Good Deed (1932), Puppy Love (1933), Pluto's Judgement Day (1935), and Mickey's Polo Team, Mickey's Grand Opera, and Mickey's Rival (all 1936). So ... sorry, I really can't narrow it down to five, but I can tell you that all of the above (and plenty more) would be candidates for my list.

[JB Kaufman]

To moirafinnie: Thank you, it's nice to be here! Yes, the Alice Comedies are a delight. As far as the hardships in producing them: yes, Walt and Roy Disney started with basically nothing and achieved their success strictly through the quality of their films, and it didn't happen overnight. So during those early years, yes, it was pretty much a hand-to-mouth operation. You asked about the pressures; actually most of the pressures came from the Disneys' distributor, Winkler Pictures. The company had been started by Margaret Winkler, and she was the one who contracted for the Disney films; but all too soon her husband, Charles Mintz, took over, and he was constantly putting pressure on Walt about one thing or another -- not only about business details like release schedules, but even trying to dictate the content of the films (yes, that sounds comical in hindsight). As for the Fleischer studio: it's true that Disney and Fleischer were both in business at the same time and were technically competitors, but I don't get the sense of a strong rivalry between them. Although their careers overlapped, actually Max Fleischer started making films several years before Walt Disney, hit his stride earlier, and was more or less established before Walt came along. (Plus, they were geographically separated, with Disney on the West Coast and Fleischer on the East.) So the sense of it was that Fleischer established himself, made his mark, and then Walt came along with new ideas and, eventually, made a new and completely different kind of animated films. (I should add that I mean no disrespect to Fleischer; I really like the Fleischer films as long as they were doing their own kind of material: Out of the Inkwell, Screen Songs, Betty Boop, Popeye. I think they only fell down when they started trying to imitate Disney -- as almost everyone else was doing in the 1930s!)
As for the lasting value of the Alice Comedies, I just think it's fascinating to see what Walt could do without the resources of a major studio behind him. He was endlessly resourceful, and in the Alices, with no budget and only a few artists working with him, he constantly comes up with clever, charming ideas that make the films delightful and entertaining. Of course the Alices also show the traces of what Walt would do in his later, more famous films, but instead of talking about them as forerunners, I like to stress that they're wonderful little films in their own right.

[moirafinnie]

Thanks so much for your insight, J.B.

I had the impression from Richard Fleischer's book "Out of the Inkwell: Max Fleischer and the Animation Revolution" that his father, Max, had some enmity toward Walt Disney years after the eclipse of the wonderful Fleischer studio. Wondering if he would seem disloyal if he undertook the daunting task even prompted the young director to ask his father for permission if he should go to work for his onetime rival when Richard Fleischer was asked to direct 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea (1954). Fortunately his father gave him the go-ahead, and the creative collaboration of a Fleischer with a Disney helped to bring about a remarkable live action movie that many of us still love.

Thinking about 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea (1954), what individual impact do you think that artist and designer Harper Goff had on the development of the look of Disney's movies, The Wonderful World of Disney programs and Disneyland in the '50s? Thanks again.

[JB Kaufman]

To moirafinnie: Thank you for your followup. That's a good question about the Disney/Fleischer situation, and I might have been a little hasty in my previous reply. So let me back up a little bit: as competitors, they surely did have some kind of rivalry. I only know about it from the Disney end, and my sense is that Walt didn't feel any kind of strong enmity toward Fleischer. On a couple of occasions during the 1930s, he actually encouraged his artists to watch the current Fleischer releases -- even though (or possibly because) he, Walt, was the acknowledged industry leader by that time and had evolved a style very different from Fleischer's. And of course you're right about the Richard Fleischer story. I don't have Richard Fleischer's book yet myself (in fact I'm waiting on delivery of a copy right now), but in the version of the story that I've heard, Richard asks his father about accepting the job; Max gives his blessing and tells Richard to compliment Walt on his taste in directors. To me that suggests a friendly rivalry -- at that point in time, anyway. In earlier years he might have had a less benign reaction.
As for Harper Goff, I understand he did have a strong influence on 20,000 Leagues and other films, and on the original Disneyland attractions (as well as being a stalwart member of the Firehouse Five Plus Two!). But I have a confession to make: I'm not really qualified to talk about 20,000 Leagues -- the 1950s are outside my territory. My standard line: the Golden Age of Hollywood was the 1910s, the 1920s, the 1930s and, when I'm in a good mood, the 1940s. Having said that, of course I acknowledge that there are always exceptions, and I certainly agree with you about 20,000 Leagues. In fact I'm also partial to several other Disney films of the 1950s, in particular Old Yeller, Darby O'Gill and the Little People, and some of the British productions. And the True-Life Adventures too. But I'm qualified to talk about them only as a fan, not as an historian.

[JackFavell]

Hi there, Mr. Kaufman! Thank you very much for coming to talk to us here at the SSO. It's such a pleasure to be able to chat with you.

I am curious, after watching the Alice comedies that you posted, if you know which animators are which in the first clip?

You piqued my interest when you say that the golden age includes the 1910's, the 1920's and the 1930's. Are there animations that you are interested in before the Disney Laugh-O-Grams? Pre-1919? or non-Disney animation?

Also, I am curious in this year of silent film finds throughout the world, if you know about or have been able to see any newly discovered animation?

[JB Kaufman]

To Jack Favell: thanks for your kind words. You may already know this, but just for the record, that first video that moirafinnie posted was Alice's Wonderland, an historic film produced in 1923. It was Walt's last production in Kansas City before he left for Hollywood, and he used it as a sample reel to sell the Alice Comedies for nationwide distribution. So you're seeing history in the making: that's the inside of the Laugh-O-gram offices, and some of the early acquaintances of Walt Disney who went on to play their own parts in animation history. I can't identify all the artists, but that's Walt himself at the drawing board when Virginia first comes to the door, and showing her around the studio. In the scene of the animated boxing match between the dog and cat, you can see two other animation legends-to-be: Hugh Harman seated at the right of the drawing board, and Rudy Ising at the far left, acting as timekeeper. I think, through hindsight, this is one of the most fascinating animated films of the 1920s.
And, yes ... I'm a Disney man from way back, and I do think Disney animation is in a class of its own, but I do love classic animation in general, and that definitely includes the silent period. Aside from Disney's films, probably the two best-loved American silent cartoon series are Fleischer's Out of the Inkwell and Pat Sullivan's Felix the Cat (actually animated by Otto Messmer), and I'm a big fan of both. And of course there's Winsor McCay, who carved his own elegant and peculiar niche in animation history. And those are only the tips of the iceberg; there were a lot of other fascinating things going on in animation during the silent period. Walt actually said that, when he got to Hollywood in 1923, he was discouraged because he thought he was getting into animation too late!
You're right, this has been an exciting year for silent-film discoveries, but so far I haven't managed to see any of them! Because of my geographical location, I've so far missed seeing Upstream or any of the others. Anyway, yes, some of those exciting finds are animated. David Gerstein and Cole Johnson have discovered prints of some of Walt's Laugh-O-grams which were previously thought lost, or incomplete, and that's an event in anybody's language. In fact some of those films were shown last week at the Museum of Modern Art. Believe me, I'm looking forward to catching up with them!

[Lzcutter]

Hey JB,

Sorry it took me so long to get here today. I went home to Southern Calif. for the weekend and returned today and went straight to work! You know what a task master Michael can be!!

I was hoping you could talk a bit about the significance of the Laugh-O-Grams and of MOMA's finding the "lost" ones and restoring them!

Thank you again for joining us here at the Oasis!

[JB Kaufman]

To Lynn: Thanks for your note. Well, of course any time we can retrieve more "lost" pieces of the Laugh-O-gram legacy, that's tremendously significant. The Laugh-O-grams come very close to being Walt Disney's first films -- they are, in fact, his first films that tell stories -- and considering the historic importance of his career, the value of seeing where it started goes without saying. What makes these discoveries especially interesting is that they've been hiding in plain sight all along. In the late 1920s, when Walt was starting to make a real name for himself, some distributors found these early efforts (already in public domain) and tried to cash in on the Disney name by reissuing the films with changed titles. Later on, the retitled versions were released to the home market on 16mm, and in several cases those 16mm prints, disguised with different titles, are the versions that have survived. So they went undetected for a long time! I have to give David and Cole a lot of credit for their detective work, unearthing the original films under those bogus titles.
And I think there are still further discoveries waiting to be made -- not only in the area of Walt's Kansas City films, but also in his two later silent series, Alice Comedies and Oswald the Lucky Rabbit. The record is a lot more complete than it was 20 years ago (this is my chance to put in a plug for the wonderful folks at Le Giornate del Cinema Muto, in Pordenone, who broke the ice with their "Walt in Wonderland" retrospective in 1992 by doing a major sweep of European archives and finding lots of "lost" titles -- and there have been other happy rediscoveries since then, including these new ones). But until we can account for every one of Walt's silents, in complete, good quality 35mm prints, there's always the hope that new treasures are waiting just around the corner.

[Lzcutter]

JB,

Good morning!

I was hoping you might share with us how you became a film buff and how that led you to becoming an author. Also, what was it about Walt Disney that drew you to him?

[JB Kaufman]

Good morning, Lynn - and there are long answers to both those questions, but the short answer is that both those events happened at the same time. Like a lot of people I got hooked on Disney at an early age, and since I grew up in a TV-less household, Walt Disney meant Walt Disney movies. I still have a pretty vivid memory of seeing Cinderella at the age of 5, and it literally changed my life: I fell in love with movies, movie theaters, and Disney animation all at the same time. For a long time I wanted a movie theater of my own, where I could enjoy that wonderful experience any time; and for an equally long time after that I wanted to be Walt Disney. Neither of those things happened, but at age 12 I had another life-changing experience: I read James Agee's "Comedy's Greatest Era," and it opened up the whole world of silent film to me. After that I got increasingly addicted to film history -- at first just the silents, and after that early talkies -- and eventually it occurred to me that those two worlds, Disney animation and film history, were related; that Walt Disney occupied an important place in that history. Since then I've continued to pursue the history of classic American films, both Disney and otherwise. It's an endlessly fascinating pursuit, and -- as, I'm sure, no reader of this site needs to be told -- the deeper you get into it, the more fascinating it gets.

[movieman1957]

As the years passed after Disney became the standard in animation, especially full length features were there influences of other animators or even regular feature film directors? Or was it all just straight ahead on his vision?

[Lzcutter]

Hey JB,

I was hoping you could talk a bit about the struggles Walt and Roy went through with the production of Snow White.

Also, what can you tell us about the making of Pinnochio that we may not be aware of?