How do we pass the Cinematic Torch?

[Lzcutter]

There has been a fair share of chest beating, arguing and debate over at TCM City as of late about the role of young people and the channel.

Is there a seat at the big top of film (TCM, the channel) for them or should TCM not try to engage young people with their programming for fear that it is a giant step on that slippery slope that will result in the AMC-fication of TCM.

I would love to have this discussion over at TCM City but I fear the thread would devolve too quickly into name calling and personality quirks for it to have any real debate.

I was young when I fell in love in with film, not barely in teens, during an age when the films were not readily available but did show up on the Late Show and the occasional showcase. Thursday nights was a Bogart/Cagney showcase, Saturday was a Tarzan showcase, the networks still had weekly nights at the movies where they highlighted popular classic films.

But you had to seek the gems out at odd hours of the night or if you were lucky on the big screen courtesy of film societies and college campuses.

This brought many of my generation into contact with other film lovers (not unlike the TCM message boards do today) and made us all realize the importance of the Cinematic Torch and the necessity of keeping that flame alive and more importantly, of passing that love of film on to the next generation so that classic and not so classic era films will continue to have an audience after we have shuffled off this mortal coil.

So, with that in mind, I've been wondering should TCM help pass that Cinematic Torch and why are so many viewers scared of young people discovering the channel? Do we not want them to experience the same joys we did at discovering these films? Do we not trust TCM to stay away from the slippery slope? Are we afraid of our own mortality?

These are the questions I have been pondering and would love to hear your thoughts on the matter.

[melwalton]

Hi, Lynn.
I think it was the commercials that finished off AMC with so many. and I expext Turner will adopt them sooner or I hope later.
As for movies aimed at young audiences, Those beach blanket things, I for one would not watch because I can't stand that rock and roll noise.
But, of course, there's an audience for everything and about all we can do is hope we continue to see a large proportion of classics.
I'd say, 'Tape what you can now before they disappear.' ..... mel

Change is the only constant. Now isn't that a fitting slogan for this topic?

[mrsl]

Hi Lynn:

I just did a whole debate with myself over on the TCM thread since nobody took up my inquiry.

why are so many viewers scared of young people discovering the channel?

Because young people today have very little reverence for antiquity. Think of your own home town, Las Vegas - what have they done to it? Are there any tributes anywhere in town that show where the original Flamingo was, or where the Dunes stood. Frank Sinatra and the Rat Pack loaded the lounges at the Sahara - Top of the line artists - but is there any plaque saying 'the Rat Pack stood here'. It may sound funny but in 10 years people will say "Frank who?"

Do we not want them to experience the same joys we did at discovering these films?

90% of them don't have those experiences. They want color, noise, fire, explosions, 'casts of thousands' even if they are imaginary drawings per CGI.

Do we not trust TCM to stay away from the slippery slope? Are we afraid of our own mortality?

TCM is already on the slippery slope. That's why they show all those 70's and 80's movies. They are NOT staying true to their claim of being a classic movie channel. At first I agree when Carrie Fisher said "Just because it's old, doesn't mean it's classic". She was wrong. In many ways being old DOES mean classic. I find it relaxing to watch a B&W movie after hours of color TV, but most young people say it gives them a headache or something.

I'm very sorry about getting old and not leaving enough info for my grand kids to know what went on in my time. I went from an operator connecting my calls to taking photos with my phone. I was watching when man landed on the moon the first time. When I was little, the radio made us use our imaginations to picture the Shadow, and Helen Trent, now we have real people eating live bugs on TV to win money! And that Lynn, is your answer - the Almighty Dollar. Integrity, remembrances, a sense of belonging - none of it equals the Dollar. Everything relies on that 100 pennies. Young people today don't want to remember the old days, they want to forge forward - they just don't realize yet, what goes around, comes around and I'm afraid when they do grasp the meaning of that phrase, they may be too late.

Anne

[Lzcutter]

why are so many viewers scared of young people discovering the channel?

Because young people today have very little reverence for antiquity. Think of your own home town, Las Vegas - what have they done to it? Are there any tributes anywhere in town that show where the original Flamingo was, or where the Dunes stood. Frank Sinatra and the Rat Pack loaded the lounges at the Sahara - Top of the line artists - but is there any plaque saying 'the Rat Pack stood here'. It may sound funny but in 10 years people will say "Frank who?"

While the image of Las Vegas is all about the now (thanks to all the advertising that the town does), the truth is that the ranks of historical preservation in Las Vegas are filled with young people in their 20s and 30s who want to help preserve the buildings, the signage and the stories. There numbers almost match our middle aged ones.

They are the ones ready to roll up their sleeves and do what is necessary to help save the history that they have only read about but never got to experience.

They are far from the typical image of young people that we get from reading newspapers or magazines.

They care about history passionately.

I came of age as part of what has been called "the most self-absorbed generation", the 1960s, where we were all about the now.

But I had a love of history and a passion for film and I went in search of others who had that same passion (and I took a number of my friends on that journey with me whether they wanted to go or not).

I was lucky, I found people who shared my passion and who nurtured me along and helped mentor me with books and movie suggestions.

I worry today that young people are not getting that help in discovering classic era film because there is such a polarization and what seems to be an age gap.

I don't want to see classic film die out but I worry that it will if we keep up an ageism argument and buy into the stereotype that all young people are brainless, clueless people who only care about themselves and texting, video games, and movies that go boom.

We don't like to be stereo-typed at our age and I imagine they don't like one bit either.

But again, how do we pass on that Cinematic Torch if we don't believe there is anyone to pass it to.

Because without the passing of the torch, will classic era film live on?

[Mr. O'Brady]

TCM is a business, and it must do whatever is necessary for its survival. A few dozen souls' opinions don't really matter when they look at the bottom line. Should they be trying to attract younger viewers? Sure. But the movies I now enjoy are considered hokey by most of the populace under the age of forty, or more accurately, sixty. I recall a link at the Message Boards to a schedule from 1998 or 1999 that included an entire primetime lineup of Margaret O'Brien movies. With the changing TCM viewership, that's never going to happen again.

I grew up in the 60's and 70's, and loved the movies of the period, as well as oldies, but as I aged, I settled most comfortably into the 1940's. Now, I can hardly watch the movies of my youth, so when I see entire afternoons programmed with 1960's films, and evenings packed with those from the 1970's, I cringe. I can't watch them anymore. Just my personal preference. As long as TCM shows plenty of my oldies, no matter what hour, I'll remain relatively happy. When they dwindle to a trickle, I'm gone. I just don't see the majority of today's youth ever enjoying the average 1940's film. "Citizen Kane" and the like, of course, but a night of Esther Williams or Andy Hardy movies will have most if not all of them switching channels at the opening credits. I'm not bashing anyone, times just change. I just feel like Neil Young on the cover of "Trans", hitching a ride into the past.

I'm not going to criticize TCM for any of its decisions. Things rarely go in the direction we wish, whether it be entertainment, society, or government. Life will go on. As long as I get to see "Big City".

As for the "young" posters at TCM, few of them really are...

[movieman1957]

It is not so much whether the "torch" is passed, it will be, as much as it is what they will do with it.

When I came to love movies stuff that was twenty years old was the likes of "Bad Day At Black Rock", "The Searchers", "Picnic", etc. I grew up between Baltimore and DC and had a quite a few stations of which several were independent. That meant classic movies every night. I watched a bunch in a hurry.

What do the kids have to look back on twenty years back? Some classic but not the grand collection we have. Our chance to see the movies we love has been reduced to TCM. They are the last guard. Without them it is done. 200-300 channels and nothing but TCM to carry on.

Anne is right. Kids don't have the attention span we did. They want quick cuts, explosions, etc. Movies are too long but they don't spend their time on character development or strong dialogue (there are exceptions so I talk in generalities.) Give them someone who is cute and has a good chance of showing up naked or some bathroom humor and they'll plunk down their $9 because they don't have anything better to choose.

They can't get the Marx Brothers. They get Adam Sandler. They can't get Maureen O'Hara. They get Jennifer Lopez. It seems no one in Hollywood wants to make an effort, mostly, to upgrade the product. Once in a while they try.

It is the dollar. How long can they go. I suspect that people who want to work at TCM understand the mission. I've said before in the end it won't matter. The suits at Time Warner will decide no matter how even the TCM staff cries foul. Then the library will be a museum piece.

The torch will be passed. We must make sure the education and the passion goes with it. If not what will we then do? What will we then discuss? It will all be nostalgia. I remember when.....

[SSO Admins]

Wow. This thread is... wow.

I agree. We have several members on this board who are young classic film fans. When I go to the revival shows at my local theater most of the audience is well under 30. It's not like there's all that many people of any age that are classic film fans. And it's not like I was around when most of the films I love were made.

The main reason some of the posters at TCM get upset about younger audiences and younger participants is because they're cranky jerks.

Also, I can't see the beach films as being shown to appeal to a younger audience. They were made 40 years ago.

TCM (and previously AMC) has done more to expand and influence interest in classic films than any other single factor. There's a much bigger audience today than there was 10 or 15 years ago, and they're not all wearing Depends.

[srowley75]

Hey Lynn,

Below are my responses, for what they're worth.

Is there a seat at the big top of film (TCM, the channel) for [younger viewers] or should TCM not try to engage young people with their programming for fear that it is a giant step on that slippery slope that will result in the AMC-fication of TCM.

I don't think the problem is or ever has been "old vs. young," at least not from my point of view. The problem has been "masses vs. cinephiles." In my experience, the masses want what's new, exciting, bold. They prefer color movies and TV to a black and white picture, whether the film was released 60 years ago or last week. They would rather see CGI than Ray Harryhausen. They'd rather see a film starring someone who's alive rather than someone long dead.

I've been wondering should TCM help pass that Cinematic Torch and why are so many viewers scared of young people discovering the channel? Do we not want them to experience the same joys we did at discovering these films? Do we not trust TCM to stay away from the slippery slope? Are we afraid of our own mortality?

I don't know why anyone would be afraid of anyone - young or old - discovering the station. I think that's an odd perspective on the situation - I mean, how are people supposed to appreciate the films if they never see them or learn their importance? Certain people seem to be selling the younger generation too short. I was around 15-16 when I started my obsession with movies in general - I just wanted to see everything. I know other people - young and old- who are the same way. Interestingly, of the people I know who are interested in film, it's the younger ones who will be more likely to sit through either (1) a classic silent picture or (2) a classic foreign film (those subtitles will scare the old folks away every time).

But I digress...I think TCM's doing a great job in educating people about classic film, as well as film in general. The new interview series with Elvis Mitchell sounds very promising, and I think The Essentials has been a great move as well. And no matter what the literati think of the AFI and other organizations that have put out "greatest [fill in the blank]" lists, those have gone a long way toward making people curious about these older films.


-Stephen

[movieman1957]

I was lucky, I found people who shared my passion and who nurtured me along and helped mentor me with books and movie suggestions.

I worry today that young people are not getting that help in discovering classic era film because there is such a polarization and what seems to be an age gap.

Therein lies the dilemma. We have to provide the education so the passion can grow. I've tried to that with my two kids. However, what are the chances that some will discover it on their own?

I discovered it on my own. I was a lonely and bored teenager. I had my classics but there were only about eight stations competing for my attention. It's possible but rare, I think, without someone suggesting they should try someone who has been dead for forty years and why. There is no TMZ for them.

I'm glad we can get them in college or church or to sit down with us. And maybe, just maybe some youngster will drop the remote just as they go by TCM. They will be too lazy to pick it up and, alas, a fan is born.

Maybe.

[Ollie]

I know none of us were born with the appreciation of older films. We learned our way into this position, but I always believe just about everyone could learn their way into this appreciable state if they wanted to. I think that anyone who IS a film fan will eventually discover the great old films as long as they're made available to them. But refusing to broadcast them, refusing to put them on home-video, refusing to make them available for festival viewings - that's how rightsholders can bury these so effectively.

[MissGoddess]

Such an interesting question, Lynn!

I still consider myself one of the "younger audience" and I certainly think that kids of all ages should be encouraged to be more open minded about seeing older movies. However, I guess unlike lots of people my age and younger, I don't expect to have things presented in a certain way ("hip" or youth-centric) before I'll investigate. That's a marketing ploy, and I'm sure the marketing people TCM hires insist it's the only way to bring in younger viewers.

Maybe kids are less curious than I always was, and more narrow minded, but I doubt that could be of true of those who are going to embrace older classic movies. The ones who have to see something as cool or hip are probably going to to less interested anyway, so I wonder if the marketing strategy may ultimately backfire?

I would like to see TCM just play it straight and be true to itself, true to showing it's core of older, seldom seen anywhere else movies.

[MissGoddess]

I know none of us were born with the appreciation of older films. We learned our way into this position, but I always believe just about everyone could learn their way into this appreciable state if they wanted to.

I'm about as close to being "born" an old movie fan as you can get. Ever since I could grasp what I liked to watch on TV, I knew I liked old, old classics, beginning with Gone with the Wind and as soon as I could talk I always whined to be able to watch an old movie rather than anything that looked "new". I was decidedly odd, ha!

That's why it's hard for me to think what might draw an older child, a teen, into liking them if it wasn't there from the start, that inclination to discover something that was older and not necessarily what all your friends are into.

[SSO Admins]

Maybe kids are less curious than I always was, and more narrow minded, but I doubt that could be of true of those who are going to embrace older classic movies. The ones who have to see something as cool or hip are probably going to to less interested anyway, so I wonder if the marketing strategy may ultimately backfire?

I would like to see TCM just play it straight and be true to itself, true to showing it's core of older, seldom seen anywhere else movies.

I like TCM's marketing a lot, and I think it's entirely true to their mission. I don't know that they're promoting the films as hip as much as they are interesting and relevant.