John Ford

[MissGoddess]

This just in: MissGoddess just finished watching Ford's first film for Fox, Just Pals. She loved it, gives it ten stars out of five and thinks it packs many of the lovley Fordy Themes into a sweet, not-so-simple story of misfit "bum" by the name of "Bim". Gotta run now!

P.S. She also now thinks Buck Jones is a hottie!

[movieman1957]

I watched "The Long Gray Line" yesterday. Though I have seen it before I was struck this time by Power's performance. Throwing out the fact that he was too old for the first half of the movie he was quite engaging. I've seen some other pictures of his but don't recall him having such flair. The rest of the cast is fine and mostly full of familiar Ford faces.

There isn't much of a story per se but it is a love story. The love between and man and woman and a man and his career. Secondly, it is a film about a community. Few directors, I think, make these kind as well as Ford. Touches of "How Green Was My Valley" and "The Quiet Man" run through and made all the more so by having Donald Crisp play Power's father. Though "Da" is invited to live with them it isn't long before he takes on his role as FATHER in the house. He barks commands as though he were still in his own home. Time marches on so there is kind of a vignette feel to the movie as it takes, at times, big time gaps to get through Power's life. There is an authentic feel to the fashions of the day and they progress well through time.

Ford even offers his won little lecture on tradition near the end of the film. That is so much about what not only West Point is about but also what he is about. He takes great pains to show that in the way the cadets work with each other and how they respect their oath. Ford uses the grounds to good effect here to bolster that point.

A pleasant film. Maybe a tad long but I found it worth watching. Lots of Irish heritage to celebrate but no deep drama or message just a man's life and that life dedicated to the academy.

[rohanaka]

I watched "The Long Gray Line" yesterday

Hiya Mr. Movieman....

I LOVE The Long Gray Line. It is NOT my favorite Ford... but it is a good one. And I too enjoyed the Irish "heritage" in this one. It was at the heart of the whole entire tale, and it really added a nice layer of understanding to some of the characters and their motivations. (Plus... it was just fun to listen to them talk... and interact w/ one another from that point of view)

To me the story starts and stops like looking through a photo album. It is like a record of his (and also his friends' and family's) days at West Point...their big events... and their private moments.... all put down for us to see, as each page turns to the next. I really enjoy stories told like that sometimes. It makes the "plot" seem a bit vague once in a while... but then when it is over... you still feel as though you know the whole story.

[MissGoddess]

I find the way this movie plays, that "vignette" feel you alluded to, Chris, makes it a rather remarkable effort. You cannot pigeon hole it into any specific type or genre. It's utterly unique and quite visual. There's not much dialogue and the old Expressionist toolbox seem to be used more and more by Ford as he got older. For a while, in his middle period, he blended it seamlessly with a more classical narrative style but by the late fifties he was becoming looser, more creative visually.

The French, by the way, adore The Long Grey Line. They found it extremely artisitic, one critic calling it avant garde. I can see on subsequent viewings over the years, what they mean. He's so sneaky, I never pick up these things until after many viewings. I just see a straightforward movie playing out and only discover the remarkable artistry later. So sneaky.

Anyway, I put TLGL in with Sergeant Rutledge, Wings of Eagles, and Seven Women as films by Ford that have a great deal of nuance and artistry that takes careful watching. Don't pick up the popcorn and think you'll get as much out of them as his other films. They beg for consideration, careful attention. Like any good painting not done in the academic style.

[movieman1957]

What do you feel might be the "avant garde" touches that Ford used? I'm not sure I saw that but wonder if there was something that caught me but would classify it as something else.

[MissGoddess]

What do you feel might be the "avant garde" touches that Ford used? I'm not sure I saw that but wonder if there was something that caught me but would classify it as something else.

Well, this is going to make precious little sense, as I'm just going to ramble my answer if you don't mind.

For one thing, the movie does not follow a straight line narrative style (which confused me to no
end the first few times I watched it) and, like many European films, nothing very much really
"happens", plotwise. Visually, he uses some rather expressionistic, dream-like imagery that is
almost surreal (I'm thinking of a scene where Marty is wandering in front of the canons and
some other superimposed" imagery which I would love to go back and screencapture if a real
discussion of this movie interests enough people).

I believe he was much looser with narrative even than in Wings of Eagles, another
biopic about a real life individual in the military, the movie it most closely resembles.
Almost poetically, this film shows the costs of serving something as rigid and tradition
bound as military and the Point. People think John Ford idolized all this sort of thing and
I believe he had mroe complex feelings about it, as this and other films illustrate (between the
lines, for he was always subtle about these things). There's nothing "gung ho" about TLGL
or Wings of Eagles. Both show the men at their center to be largely failures in their personal
life on some level.

Consequently, the movie is daring to me in that it concerns itself with a central character who
is, essentially, a failure in many respects. I think this is very Fordian---the battles we lost tended
to interest him more than than the glorious "victories". Nothing that Marty set out to do every
happened the way he wished---in particular, leaving the Point. He's always tryign to leave, to
get out and something always happens to post-pone it. Usually the demands of either military
action and responsibility, or someone more personally related making a demand upon him. We
never get to see Marty as he himself wishes to be, but see him always at the mercy of circumstance
and the demands and duties imposed by others.

Why would Ford choose to film Martin Maher's story like this when it's so obviously ripe for exploiting
as a "rah rah" of the military life, and how everyone in its service is important? Why does he go off into
these kinds of thoughtful silences with the character of Marty, at the most peculiar moments? It gives the
whole movie, to me anyway, a very off-beat texture and rythm and also makes it a challenge to follow
what's going on.

I don't see the movie as altogether glorifying the Point or the military. It's a bit more ambivalent about
that and Marty loses a lot of himself, becoming "grayer and grayer" himself as the movie goes on. He's
not terribly happy, I think his wife, Maureen O'Hara, was his one connection to anything real. That's why
the honor accorded him at the end comes as such an astonishing surprise to him.

However, the movie does affirm the value of soldiers, the men in the "gray line". I think Ford was
fascinated by their bravery, as well as somewhat conflicted by the fact that there is so much smothering
of individuality involved behind the basic precepts of military life. They have always been where Ford gives
unequivocal praise and glory.

In some respects, the movie reminds me of Capra's It's a Wonderful Life, but it's much darker even
than that film.

I think I just gave you much more than you asked for, sorry Chris! But you make me want to see it again,
this time at my computer, taking caps.

[moira finnie]

Miss G--
Your comments on the avante-garde elements in Ford's later work interests me, though I would contend that these expressionistic aspects of his work were always present--going back at least to The Lost Patrol (1934), a movie that could easily have had Samuel Beckett as screenwriter.

In any case, I'd love to see any screen captures you might feel like putting on display.

Do you think that Ford's ambivalence about the way his manly characters lived was something he was entirely comfortable about expressing? Was he exploring these themes consciously in all his films?

Was he constantly trying to balance the commercial needs of his business with his interest in certain themes? Or did he not give a hoot by the '60s?

Many people feel that John Ford's movies are not truly about the men, but about the women characters. What do you think?

Oh, btw. Welcome back. Missed ya!

[movieman1957]

Thanks for your comments April. On the surface this doesn't seem like, based on your description, it would be much of a movie. He was a failure in most things save for the impact he had on the cadets and the academy. Therein lies his success. He overcame his failures.

It seems do have been done with a great deal of affection. His working of the academy, both physically and emotionally, makes an important part of the story.

I'm inclined to think, based on Moira's, comments that there is very little to do from a women's perspective as Maureen is the only real female here but she is important to Marty's character. She becomes the "woman of the house" not only to Marty but his father and brother as well.

[MissGoddess]

It seems do have been done with a great deal of affection. His working of the academy, both physically and emotionally, makes an important part of the story.

Absolutely. I don't think anyone else would make a movie like this, in this style, about military men.
That Ford could marry a unique film style with personal sentiment so well is one of the reasons I adore him.

I'm inclined to think, based on Moira's, comments that there is very little to do from a women's perspective as Maureen is the only real female here but she is important to Marty's character. She becomes the "woman of the house" not only to Marty but his father and brother as well.

I have to watch it again, but my impression is that the women were the heart of the story, they even
gave Marty the "heart" to go on. Women, if not in the forefront are almost always the catalysts, the
motivatons for what the heros do. Ford believed STRONGLY, I think, in the power of love between
men and women, whether in the form of romantic love, filial, or between mother and child.

[movieman1957]

Betsy Palmer does play a bigger role later in the film because she partly becomes the conscience of that part of the film and the futility, sometimes, of war. She has lost her husband and though she doesn't like it her son will grow up to go to the academy and eventually to war. The loss of husband brought home as the son is sent away. She clearly has a role in playing the other side of the equation, if you will. If she is not there then there can be no discussion of the emotional side other than what Marty shows for the boys he has lost. The boys no their duty and will go with no discussion.

They do press Marty to go on.

Do you think the death of Marty's own son makes him take the boys on more as his own? I do. At first because I think Maureen puts in his head but after awhile it becomes his way.

[MissGoddess]

Hi Moira! Thank you for the welcome back! I did miss these discussions like the dickens.

Miss G--
Your comments on the avante-garde elements in Ford's later work interests me, though I would contend that these expressionistic aspects of his work were always present--going back at least to The Lost Patrol (1934), a movie that could easily have had Samuel Beckett as screenwriter.

I agree he never abandoned them, it's just that in the post-Fox years, until the late fifities and in his last
few films, I sense a far more seamless blending of the classical narrative style that we associate with the
studio era, and a more subdued use of technical stylizing. After that period (which feature many of his most
popular films like The Searchers), I see less linear storytelling, less explanatory dialogue than ever and more
of those visual flourishes that I first saw in his silents up through the 1940s Fox films.

It may also have to do with his getting a complete mastery of the use of Technicolor. He was at heart,
a "black and white" director because he considered the purist form of filmaking (so much for his being
just a "traffic cop" on the set. Traffic cops don't care what film's in the camera. )

In any case, I'd love to see any screen captures you might feel like putting on display.

Thank you, I may do so soon. I may make The Long Gray Line my next "in depth" exploration of
Ford, if not The Grapes of Wrath.

Do you think that Ford's ambivalence about the way his manly characters lived was something he was entirely comfortable about expressing? Was he exploring these themes consciously in all his films?

Hmmm...that's a remarkable question. I can't pretend to know even the slightest bit what went on
inside him, except that he was constantly thinking in terms of his creative urge to tell stories, and tell
them his way. He even wanted to write stories for children. I think he was the true artist who works
because so much is roiling inside them they simply have to get it out.

yet he was acutely aware of both what the public could handle, what the studios would allow and
also, more importantly, what the best way, artistically, was to present a new idea or way of expressing
an eternal one. He seemed to be most subtle, oblique and indirect about the most intimate, important
or controversial issues in the life of man. In contrast, he was blunt, direct and even caustic about other,
lesser or in his mind, pointless aspects. For instance, unrequited love is presented so delicately you
might miss the one, single gesture that expresses it---yet it is so powerful it suffuses the entire movie
(Ethan and Martha in The Searchers). Youth, and it's relation to the past, the older generation, often
by contrast gets a ruogh and tumble expression, as if to say that youth itself, if it is to emerge stronger
and better, must do so by trial by fire (any number of his films, particularly the cavalry series, bear
out the often painful mistakes and chastisements or acting foolishly younger people must endure in the
presence of their elders. Yet I believe love is often behind these rites of passage---not always---but
most often).

I'm not sure I answered your question there, by the way, lol. You just got me started off in
a direction I had to follow.

Was he constantly trying to balance the commercial needs of his business with his interest in certain themes? Or did he not give a hoot by the '60s?

I think in terms of his waning energy, the increased demands to focus on extraneous aspects of production (getting financing, hustling for a studio, dealing with agents---all the stuff he had heretofore had been able to deflect onto
the studio or a production partner) definitely limited his ability to get a movie up on the screen that entirely reflected
his vision. He in many ways had more freedom at Fox than he did when he was truly on his own. It's a shame to me
because I believe that, could his energy have been conserved and his vision retained (he was losing sight in his
one good eye, just like Fritz Lang did) he would have embarked on perhaps his most visually striking period since
the silents. The later films fascinate me because they contain these glimpses of a startlingly fresh (to my eyes)
way of telling his stories. The tools may be the same but the manner of use was not what I was accustomed
to from Ford. He also was venturing into more daring territory, as the subject nature of Seven Women demonstrates.

Old age doesn't diminish talent or creativity, I believe. Only depleted energy, illness, incapcitates its expression.
These things were his demons as much as the commercial or business challenges---challenges I believe an old
Indian Fighter like him was more than capabable of meeting if he'd had the stamina of his prime.

Many people feel that John Ford's movies are not truly about the men, but about the women characters. What do you think?

I think they are quite even handedly about both. What I disagree with are those who say his films
fall short in their depiction of the female characters and narratives. Far from it. And I have begun
to think that Ford may have valued what society considers the "feminine viewpoint" at least as
much as or more than the "masculine". That is to say, family, is the thing--not glory, not duty,
not even necessarily an individual's most compelling inner drives, whatever they may be. Always,
there is some allusion to an individual, usually male, being a "broken" or "damaged" being due to loss
of family, usually loss of the mother, sister, lover/wife. He even shows how history and the past
are molded by the cumulative events of individual actions in relation to their family. Does the
family breakdown because of societal change or does society change because the family breaks
down? Both questions find expression in his movies. This concern with women in a man's life
and the importance of family is not typical to many male directors, or is often translated with
far more conflict and even malice. Not Ford. He's most serene about the importance of men and
women in each other's lives.

I am finding my way through his oevre, one film at a time, and my ideas and impressions are
constantly developing, finding new channels.

I apologize for writing too much and putting everyone to sleep---you know you are asking for
incessant, incomprehensible babbling when you get me started on this topic.

[MissGoddess]

Betsy Palmer does play a bigger role later in the film because she partly becomes the conscience of that part of the film and the futility, sometimes, of war. She has lost her husband and though she doesn't like it her son will grow up to go to the academy and eventually to war. The loss of husband brought home as the son is sent away. She clearly has a role in playing the other side of the equation, if you will. If she is not there then there can be no discussion of the emotional side other than what Marty shows for the boys he has lost. The boys no their duty and will go with no discussion.

Excellent point, Chris---I did feel Palmer's presence strongly, her pain was extremely poignant and you feel it's
"heavyness" on the other characters.

Do you think the death of Marty's own son makes him take the boys on more as his own? I do. At first because I think Maureen puts in his head but after awhile it becomes his way.

Good question. I feel like Marty loses more and more of himself, his stake as an individual in the world, the
scheme of things, as the movie progresses. Events like the death of his son and his subsequent involvement
with the other cadets, in a way, diminish him. He doesn't even have a reality as a separate member of
a real family unit, he's even given his role as father to the military!!! That is rather tragic to me, but at
the same time poignant and Ford does make space for both sides of that development. It both saves and
diminishes Marty to have the young cadets rally round him and appreciate him.

I really need to watch the movie more closely, though, to clarify all these interesting aspects. A lot of the
movie has slipped between my fingers and I have only this impressionistic conception of it at present. I'll
move in closer to look at the brushstrokes later on.

[mrsl]

Wow, I hope you guys don't mind me jumping in here because I DO feel this is one of Fords better works. I usually think of him as a Western director, but there are all those war films, and things like The Quiet Man, and How Green was my Valley also, then along comes The Long Grey Line. I see this as a kind of military Goodbye Mr. Chips with a green novice starting out and growing into a beloved icon of the institution.

I don't see him as a failure at all because in most cases his wife or father are there for support, except perhaps the swimming instructor, which was a great bit of comic relief. As for selling cars, he didn't really fail, it's just that 'ahhhhh Mary O'Donnell' missed life at the academy. Just as Greer Garson started the tradition of Sunday afternoon tea with the students, Maureen started weekly ice-box raids.

Because their own baby son died, Marty and his wife both thought of all the cadets as 'their boys'. The cadets went to them for advice and help and when Marty finally understood the reasons for the self discipline, the academy became even more important to him.

The long quiet, reflective walks, no matter if around the cannons, or the magnificent gravestones, were what most people do when they have some question to deal with, or the demands and duties imposed by others. I'm not sure I understand you use of avant garde here, so I may misunderstand your meaning.

I love Da (Donald Crisp), here as a self-serving little bandy-cock, but he was right when he did open up and say some things. And after all he was just being the patriarch of the family as they all thought of him.

If anyone answers me, I'll get on to Betsy Palmer later.

Anne

[MissGoddess]

Hi Anne!

Wow, I hope you guys don't mind me jumping in here because I DO feel this is one of Fords better works. I usually think of him as a Western director, but there are all those war films, and things like The Quiet Man, and How Green was my Valley also, then along comes The Long Grey Line. I see this as a kind of military Goodbye Mr. Chips with a green novice starting out and growing into a beloved icon of the institution.

I do agree with you---I think the movie certainly does work on that level. He could do that, give you a
wonderful story, full of light and humor, but I also believe he could "hide" a lot of other stuff, for those
who might want to look for it.

I don't see him as a failure at all because in most cases his wife or father are there for support, except perhaps the swimming instructor, which was a great bit of comic relief. As for selling cars, he didn't really fail, it's just that 'ahhhhh Mary O'Donnell' missed life at the academy. Just as Greer Garson started the tradition of Sunday afternoon tea with the students, Maureen started weekly ice-box raids.

I really need to watch it again, but I seemed to think there was an odd note to the seemingly charming
domestic scene. Marty is not really allowed to have anything his way in his own home, which is both
funny and a little disturbing when you look at his life as a whole. He is never really defined by anything
but his relationship to the Academy, even his own bride seems to be fine with this or encourage it. And
women are very much a factor in the perpetuation of tradition, including military tradition, at least
back in those times.

I can't help but feel tradition, something we think of as lauded unequivocably by Ford, is presented
more complexly by him as both a great thing and a bane. The tradition and duty of the Academy
at once gives Marty a place in life and presses down on his individuality.

Because their own baby son died, Marty and his wife both thought of all the cadets as 'their boys'. The cadets went to them for advice and help and when Marty finally understood the reasons for the self discipline, the academy became even more important to him.

But is self-discipline and devotion to duty a replacement for a home of ones' own, and personal happiness? Marty
pays a pretty high price for his life at the Academy. He gets some richness out of it, and he got a loving tribute
in the form of this film by a great director, which may be the best of all because it endures. We're here talking
about it, and him, now.

I don't disagree with anything you say about it, ANne, not at all. I just get REAL curious when I see certain
"signals" that Ford is not just giving us a straightforward tale (a la, Mr Chips). Signals like a frustrated
and not altogether happy "hero" who is largely ineffectual plus strangely haunting imagery and a somewhat
non-linear framework. He's no Sam Wood so it's possible more is there than meets the eye. But the movie
still works on either level, I just like to dive in sometimes and see what I may (or may not) turn up.

The long quiet, reflective walks, no matter if around the cannons, or the magnificent gravestones, were what most people do when they have some question to deal with, or the demands and duties imposed by others. I'm not sure I understand you use of avant garde here, so I may misunderstand your meaning.

As I recall, it's not where the scenes took place that struck me as off beat, it's how the director used some interesting
dissolves and blocking that caught my eye. I just want to understand why, if it was just a reflective walk. And
a character who goes off by himself to ruminate in a Ford film, usually does so with an acute sense of loss.

I love Da (Donald Crisp), here as a self-serving little bandy-cock, but he was right when he did open up and say some things. And after all he was just being the patriarch of the family as they all thought of him.

I love him, too. He reminds me of the wonderful Mr. Morgan (from How Green Was My Valley). "Da" is in
search of a place for himself, too---you see, he lost his wife. Sound familiar?

[movieman1957]

Anne:

I'm glad you joined in. I think April is right about loosing the house in one sense because when Da comes to live he takes it over. Everything is done to his schedule and his liking. April also bring up the point about losing his individuality. This is really what the military is all about. You can't have order if everyone wants to do what they want to do. He can only have that in his own home and he doesn't always have it there.

The one thing about Marty that can be said is that he is loved. His family loves and most everyone at the academy loves him. Regardless of what he has or hasn't done they all like him. In that one sense he has accomplished a lot.