Did Fred ever kiss Ginger?

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charliechaplinfan
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Did Fred ever kiss Ginger?

Post by charliechaplinfan »

I'm a big lover of romantic films. IMO one of the most romantic couples onscreen are Fred and Ginger. Apart from the dances I love she will she, won't she have him scenario. I can't remember a single instance when they kissed. Is my imagination playing tricks or did they never kiss onscreen?
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MissGoddess
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stuart.uk
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Post by stuart.uk »

Miss G

They didn't kiss in that scene you sent, the door opened in the vital moment.

Ps I tried to send you a private email, but it was sent back.

Alison

I think Carefree was the first screen kiss between them. Then The Vernon And Irene Castle Story. Then finally in the comeback movie The Barkley's Of Broadway. The fact they didn't kiss till late on was discussed in the Fred And Ginger part of Ed Asners The RKO Story
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charliechaplinfan
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Post by charliechaplinfan »

Thankyou Miss Goddess, the door did open, the clip does illustrate how sexy, suggestive and playful they are.

Thanks for the info too Stuart. Carefree and The Story of Vernon and Irene Castle aren't the films I'm most fimiliar with. I tend to go for the earlier ones. I'll revisit them.
Failure is unimportant. It takes courage to make a fool of yourself - Charlie Chaplin
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charliechaplinfan
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Post by charliechaplinfan »

I've ruminated on this a little more today. Ginger transformed Fred like none of his later partners, with her he was romantic figure. He made some fabulous musicals with fabulous dances and fabulous leading ladies after Ginger but I haven't seen one where he captured the romantic essence he had with Ginger.
Failure is unimportant. It takes courage to make a fool of yourself - Charlie Chaplin
jdb1

Post by jdb1 »

Rogers has said that when she and Astaire first started working together (rehearsing as a team before their first film, and this was shortly before Astaire got married) they "dated." Maybe that would account in part for their particular rapport -- a little crush; a special personal affection.
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charliechaplinfan
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Post by charliechaplinfan »

I never knew that, I knew that he was happily married to Phyllis for may years.

Ginger was very attractive, I love her onscreen persona in the thirties.
Failure is unimportant. It takes courage to make a fool of yourself - Charlie Chaplin
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Ayres
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Post by Ayres »

charliechaplinfan wrote: He made some fabulous musicals with fabulous dances and fabulous leading ladies after Ginger but I haven't seen one where he captured the romantic essence he had with Ginger.
Have you ever seen his two films with Rita Hayworth? In my opinion, the two dancers burn up the screen--though (as in his movies with Rogers) kissing is rare or interrupted or comical. Astaire was rather famous for not seeming very comfortable with screen kisses (though according to Ginger herself, he was fully capable of quite the passionate one offscreen), but I must say that he does seem to be enjoying himself when he kisses Rita!

But from 1933 to 1938, the smooches in Astaire-Rogers films were either staged as funny, as in the clip above, or just didn't have that movie star clinch quality (he does embrace her at the end of Swing Time, but he turns his back to us and there's a quick fadeout). By '38, their fans were clamoring for them to kiss! So in Carefree they finally did (and slowly, as the dance that culminated in the kiss was filmed in slow motion). Their two last films also had more than one kiss each.

I also find much of Astaire's dancing with Cyd Charisse intensely romantic/sexy. There are two other actresses with whom I also feel he had a great acting rapport, even if the dancing was not as magical--Joan Leslie and Leslie Caron.
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Ayres
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Post by Ayres »

jdb1 wrote:Rogers has said that when she and Astaire first started working together (rehearsing as a team before their first film, and this was shortly before Astaire got married) they "dated." Maybe that would account in part for their particular rapport -- a little crush; a special personal affection.
Right, Judith--Fred and Ginger dated in New York in 1930. Rogers was appearing in the show "Girl Crazy" with Ethel Merman, and Astaire was in "Smiles" with his sister and Marilyn Miller that year. Fred was called in to choreograph the "Embracable You" number in "Girl Crazy," and that's how the two met. The following year Ginger headed out to Hollywood, and in 1932 Fred met his wife-to-be Phyllis in New York. In the summer of 1933 Fred and Phyllis had been married for only a day or two when they boarded a plane for Los Angeles so that he could try his luck in the movies.
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charliechaplinfan
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Post by charliechaplinfan »

Ayres, are these quotes from Ginger's autobiography, I keep looking at it, there's plenty of copies around.

I agree about his chemistry with Cyd Charisse, Rita Hayworth and Leslie Caron. I didn't feel he was well matched with Eleanor Powell and with Judy Garland it's more of a comical match, a very good one. Judy I feel was more romantic with Gene Kelly. I couldn't imagine Easter Parade with Gene, it has Fred's mark stamped all over it.

I must rewatch the Rita Hayworth films, it's a while since I've seen them.
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Ayres
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Post by Ayres »

charliechaplinfan wrote:Ayres, are these quotes from Ginger's autobiography?
I wasn't quoting her, but if you'd like me to, here goes:

From "Ginger: My Story"
Pages 80-81

The Casino in the Park was a magical place. The atmosphere was dreamy
with soft lights and floral and spice aromas in the air. The circular
sand-colored hardwood dance floor came right up to the bandstand. The
Casino was indeed a charming place for a quiet rendezvous. The low
background music was perfect for a romantic dinner for two. We dawdled
over the menu and finally ordered our supper, and then Fred asked me
to dance.

I made the happy discovery that as wonderful a dancer as Fred was on
the stage, he was equally superb as a partner on the dance floor. Part
of the joy in dancing is conversation. Trouble is, some men can't talk
and dance at the same time. They lose the rhythm. Fred was a
delightful conversationalist and we chatted away. He really knew how
to lead a girl around the floor and used each rhythm to introduce
different footwork.

Mind you, there was nothing showy about Fred's ballroom dancing, it
was understated and elegant. You could put yourself in his hands and
trust to his feet. We returned to our table and found our food
waiting. It was cold, but we didn't care. We were having such a good time.

We got up to dance again and moved toward the bandstand to compliment
Eddy Duchin on the music. Eddy was pleased and looked at us with a
twinkle in his eye as he said, "Fred, you and Ginger really look good
together." Fred laughed and put us into a three-second whirl while
Eddy smiled approvingly. Too soon, Duchin's band began its goodnight
tune, signaling that the evening was over. I felt as though I could
have danced all night.

Within ten minutes we were on our way home in his handsome Rolls-Royce
town car. Like an aperitif, Fred's well-trained chauffeur drove us
through the park, so we could talk a wee bit more before we said
adieu. Finally, the car stopped in front of my building. The chauffeur
got out and walked around the car, waiting on the sidewalk near the
trunk for a signal as to when to open the car door. He must have
waited about five minutes.

Inside the car, Fred had me in his arms, and the kiss that we shared
in that five minutes would never have passed the Hays Office code!
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charliechaplinfan
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Post by charliechaplinfan »

Thanks for that Ayres, now I am going to have to read that book :wink:
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shak88
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Post by shak88 »

i'm not quite sure what to think of fred and ginger's working relationship since you always read that they did/did not like each other. fred would later have no qualms about kissing hayworth (and in both films he looked like he was enjoying himself) or charisse, caron, garland, hepburn, etc.
also, there are 2 astaire/ rogers dance numbers i question....."the piccolino" in 'top hat' ends with the two spinning up to and sitting at their dinner table, ginger's dress rides up although she tries to fix it and finish the routine but is unable to...why use that take? would not gentleman fred use a take that is flattering to his partner?
and in the challenge tap they do in 'follow the fleet', at one point ginger takes a fall, fred does NOTHING to break her fall (he knew it was coming) and ginger slams into that floor, OUCH! once again, why use that take for posterity?
let me be clear, fred is my all-time favorite entertainer and the duo one of the best loved teams in movie history, it really shouldn't matter how they felt about each other.......STILL, i will be buying that new astaire book that's due out this fall, just in case there's more info on the two.
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Ayres
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Post by Ayres »

shak88 wrote:also, there are 2 astaire/ rogers dance numbers i question....."the piccolino" in 'top hat' ends with the two spinning up to and sitting at their dinner table, ginger's dress rides up although she tries to fix it and finish the routine but is unable to...why use that take? would not gentleman fred use a take that is flattering to his partner?
and in the challenge tap they do in 'follow the fleet', at one point ginger takes a fall, fred does NOTHING to break her fall (he knew it was coming) and ginger slams into that floor, OUCH! once again, why use that take for posterity?
let me be clear, fred is my all-time favorite entertainer and the duo one of the best loved teams in movie history, it really shouldn't matter how they felt about each other.......STILL, i will be buying that new astaire book that's due out this fall, just in case there's more info on the two.

I had to go back and look at the end of "The Piccolino" to see what you were talking about. I never noticed that before! She does sort of readjust the tulle overskirt of her dress once she has sat down, but it looks very natural and (obviously, as I hadn't noticed) doesn't detract for me from the moment. In fact, it sorta adds a bit of spontaneity. I wonder if the director agreed, and that's why they kept that bit.

As for the way Rogers pratfalls in "I'm Putting All My Eggs in One Basket," I've always marveled at that--she REALLY sits hard in that fall! But that was intentional on both their parts (and on dance director Hermes Pan's) for comic effect.

Through the years there was a lot of publicity claiming that Astaire and Rogers did not get along, but I think it just made for fun movie magazine copy. I think they had their disagreements and frustrations with each other, just as any two people working hard on a tough physical job will. They didn't socialize together often, as they seemed not to move in the same circle of friends. But there never was any animosity. They sent each other family photos, occasionally danced socially in public, and had a lot of respect for each other's abilities.

As for biographies, be wary... I have yet to run across one that truly captures the essence of their relationship and its complexities. The best two books to read about their working relations are The Fred Astaire and Ginger Rogers Book by Arlene Croce and Astaire Dancing by John Mueller. (Sadly, both are out of print, but not that difficult to find through abebooks, alibris, or ebay.)
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Post by shak88 »

i love astaire and all of his work is just perfection. i have about 12-15 books on him.
i really dislike the mueller book, he interjects -heavily-so much of his own opinion into it i find it hard to read.... to the point that i feel mueller has no right to sit in judgement of fred's career and tell the reader what fred did right and what he did wrong.
i prefer biographies where the author is more in the backround and just relaying the facts and leaving it to me to make my own conclusions.
it's been so long since a book on his career has been released, i'm looking forward to this new one.
this book by joseph epstein ,though, seems like it will also be very opinionated, there is a excerpt of it floating around the internet, and epstein comes to the conclusion that fred did not care much for ginger,and references some things about the fred/ginger relationship i had never heard, like the fact that ginger was not invited to fred's AFI tribute on purpose.
Last edited by shak88 on August 25th, 2008, 11:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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