Marlene Dietrich

[charliechaplinfan]

It was me who read the Donald Spoto book, I felt he didn't really like her, I don't think she would have cared, I felt that he was judging her life by his own standards. I have Maria's book, I haven't read it in a long time but I sometimes dip into it, not only does Maria recount her mother's affairs but all of her opinions on the other stars of the time. Her stories about making The Garden of Allah are hilarious, how Selznick didn't strangle her I'll neve know.

Regarding her war work I always felt that perhaps it was partly guilt because she was German and even though she had rejected Naziism all the way along, there might have been a lasting stigma.

I recently read Erich Maria Remarque's Arch De Triumph, a book I very much enjoyed, it's an enjoyable story but the leading characters are thinly veiled copies of Remarque and Marlene.

I'm not sure she had any female friends which isn't surprising, if you're going to live like that it's not going to endear you to other women, particularly if you are after their partners.

As a screen star though she is very enjoyable.

[Libertine]

It was me who read the Donald Spoto book, I felt he didn't really like her, I don't think she would have cared, I felt that he was judging her life by his own standards. I have Maria's book, I haven't read it in a long time but I sometimes dip into it, not only does Maria recount her mother's affairs but all of her opinions on the other stars of the time. Her stories about making The Garden of Allah are hilarious, how Selznick didn't strangle her I'll neve know.

Spoto really was pretty negative about Marlene. And I didn't like this attitude "she did everything she did only because of the things she would get back for it". How can he know?

It always seemed weird to me how many details Maria Riva can recall, why I myself can not even remember what I spoke with anyone last week. But she said she has a sort of memory which makes her see everything like a movie, and that she was even tested at the UCLA. So who knows? And who knows how much you can trust, because she also said, you have to find out for yourself what you believe or what not, but I trust her more than Donald Spoto, for an example.

You know, Marlene was emancipated, though she didn't like the word or the "female revolution" of the 60s. She felt men superior to women and she said so more than once, but she lived her own way of life, and no matter what she liked or disliked she was emancipated long before the word existed. It came natural to her.

The Garden of Allah - God knows everything, but Marlene knows everything better, is all I say.

I'm not sure she had any female friends which isn't surprising, if you're going to live like that it's not going to endear you to other women, particularly if you are after their partners.

Yeah, she had no real female friends. I don't know if there was a friendship with DelRio, or Mae West I think it was more an acquaintance with them. Women were rivals. The only one with whom she was close to a friendship was Hildegard Knef.

I recently read Erich Maria Remarque's Arch De Triumph, a book I very much enjoyed, it's an enjoyable story but the leading characters are thinly veiled copies of Remarque and Marlene.

I hope to get that book soon. Remarque was an interesting and sensitive person. Need to find out more about him.

Gosh she treated some men so badly, but in the end, most of them loved her forever, and stayed in contact with her for the rest of their lives. Which makes you think. She must have had something about her which made them forgive her... except for Gabin...

[charliechaplinfan]

Ahh,.... but she loved him most of all.

Hope you like Arch De Triumph as much as I did, it certainly encourages me to find more of his work.

[Libertine]

Don't you think she loved Gabin most of all, just because it was him who left her in the end? He said Fine, and that was it. He never wanted to see her again, and that was what happened. I think, for her, in her mind, the relationship stayed "perfect", just because it ended one-sided...

[charliechaplinfan]

I can't remember what Maria Riva had to say about Gabin, I realise my view is probably Donald Spoto's view on the matter. Certainly he mattered a great deal to her, perhaps more than the others but in the end I think he saw the writing on the cards and perhaps too it was fun whilst it lasted but it was just too tiring to live for a lifetime.

I don't know whether I understand her husband or not, it seems she didn't begrudge him and his mistress and always paid, he worked but not enough to fund his life style, I would have thought in the climate of the times it wouldn't be a role that would sit comfortably with many men. Maybe it was their way of being faithful to one another, although I think Rudy provided a great excuse for Marlene to get out of her relationships, she was already married plus it disguised her relationships from some of the press. I'm not sure how well she covered her tracks but most of it stayed out of the gossip columns. I think she must have made large and regular donations to Hedda and Louella.

Another thing I garnered from reading the Spoto book is that the list of her leading men that she had relations with far out stripped the ones she didn't. In the list of the ones she didn't (as far as I remember)

Charles Boyer
Edward G Robinson

[Libertine]

I can't remember what Maria Riva had to say about Gabin, I realise my view is probably Donald Spoto's view on the matter. Certainly he mattered a great deal to her, perhaps more than the others but in the end I think he saw the writing on the cards and perhaps too it was fun whilst it lasted but it was just too tiring to live for a lifetime.

I really depends on what book you read. I remember in Stephen Bach's book it is also mentioned that he, because of his jealousy, did beat her at times. But, well.. I don't know anything about Gabin otherwise. I don't know if it is very possible or not, but I am sure she was really driving him crazy at times. And he must have been very sad and hurt about here affair with Gavin.. and others. If she loved him so much, why wasn't she faithful? So hard to understand.

I don't know whether I understand her husband or not, it seems she didn't begrudge him and his mistress and always paid, he worked but not enough to fund his life style, I would have thought in the climate of the times it wouldn't be a role that would sit comfortably with many men. Maybe it was their way of being faithful to one another, although I think Rudy provided a great excuse for Marlene to get out of her relationships, she was already married plus it disguised her relationships from some of the press. I'm not sure how well she covered her tracks but most of it stayed out of the gossip columns. I think she must have made large and regular donations to Hedda and Louella.

Another one of these complicated things about her. I am sure he was not happy about the situation - as a man, regarding his pride. It seems he left his anger out on Tamara and on various waiters, people who worked in hotels, whatever. He could be a tyrant- remember the various restaurant-stories. It seems on the surface that they were happy with the situation. I think he was not. He thought he'd marry a woman who'd become a nice lil housewife and mother. I think the way they arranged in the end guaranteed that he didn't lose his face in public, he stayed her husband, no matter what. May she have a dozen of affairs at once... it's amazing how she invited her lovers to holidays, or parties while he was there too. He had his affairs as well, and so it was a nice family - for a while.

About the gossip columns. There hasn't been any Confidential yet, and I don't know really what was written then and what hasn't been, but, it must have been obvious. She was photographed with Fairbanks Jr. all the time, with Remarque.. with Gabin.. at least with those it couldn't have been really a secret. But, Hedda and Louella probably were on her side...

Another thing I garnered from reading the Spoto book is that the list of her leading men that she had relations with far out stripped the ones she didn't. In the list of the ones she didn't (as far as I remember)

Charles Boyer
Edward G Robinson

Randolph Scott
John Wayne - I know some sources say so, but he said he didn't want to be one of many horses in a stable. I tend to believe him here.
Robert Donat - and boy was she disappointed!
Fred MacMurray - he was too much in love with his wife.
Tyrone Power - never heard anything about an affair.
Herbert Marshall
Melvyn Douglas
Cary Grant

But then, still, the list of lovers is long though... and I find it interesting in the Riva book when Riva doesn't mention a name, but descriptions... happened with Fairbanks Jr. and Burt Lancaster... I assume because both have been alive when it was published...

[Rita Hayworth]

It was me who read the Donald Spoto book, I felt he didn't really like her, I don't think she would have cared, I felt that he was judging her life by his own standards.

I'm not sure she had any female friends which isn't surprising, if you're going to live like that it's not going to endear you to other women, particularly if you are after their partners.

Yeah, she had no real female friends. I don't know if there was a friendship with DelRio, or Mae West I think it was more an acquaintance with them. Women were rivals. The only one with whom she was close to a friendship was Hildegard Knef.

Libertine, Marlene Dietrich and Rita Hayworth were friends for life. They are often seen together & Marlene was an "unofficial mentor" to Rita. Here's some photos from my collection ... They have dinner together, Marlene often at her home quite often and Orson Welles (Rita's 2nd Husband) loves having her around, and so forth. True BFF behavior!

[charliechaplinfan]

I didn't know those extra stories about Rudy Sieber, he's hardly mentioned in the Spoto book. I don't know a great deal about Gabin, I only know I like him a great deal as an actor. Perhaps he beat her, he was very unhappy in Hollywood perhaps coupled with Marlene's constant infidelity it was too much and he went back home to join the Free French.

She definetly didn't have an affair with Cary Grant, I remember Maria's version of what Marlene thought of Cary, a tie salesman and a homosexual, so that's probably why she didn't try it with Randolph Scott either. I've recently read a book about John Wayne called John Wayne American which says he did have an affair with her. Robert Donat, I remember that story, she got nowhere. Herbert Marshall had quite an appetite for the ladies, I thought he did. She stories she could tell but didn't.

[Libertine]

Libertine, Marlene Dietrich and Rita Hayworth were friends for life. They are often seen together & Marlene was an "unofficial mentor" to Rita. Here's some photos from my collection ... They have dinner together, Marlene often at her home quite often and Orson Welles (Rita's 2nd Husband) loves having her around, and so forth. True BFF behavior!

That's interesting. Wasn't she mainly there at their home because of Orson? I never read a lot about Marlene and Rita, in any of the books on Marlene. Maybe one on Rita says more about it?

I didn't know those extra stories about Rudy Sieber, he's hardly mentioned in the Spoto book. I don't know a great deal about Gabin, I only know I like him a great deal as an actor. Perhaps he beat her, he was very unhappy in Hollywood perhaps coupled with Marlene's constant infidelity it was too much and he went back home to join the Free French.

She definetly didn't have an affair with Cary Grant, I remember Maria's version of what Marlene thought of Cary, a tie salesman and a homosexual, so that's probably why she didn't try it with Randolph Scott either. I've recently read a book about John Wayne called John Wayne American which says he did have an affair with her. Robert Donat, I remember that story, she got nowhere. Herbert Marshall had quite an appetite for the ladies, I thought he did. She stories she could tell but didn't.

Maybe he had for her, but she didn't for him? They made two movies together, and the only thing she said about him ever to Maria it seems, was about how he managed to walk with his wooden leg without anyone noticing he had one. I like his voice and accent though, I bet he could be a charmer... but wasn't he together with Swanson around that time? Doesn't mean he must have been faithful...

That with John Wayne.. I also thought, always thought they had an affair... but then I read that in the Riva book, and I think, why should she lie about that, when she is so extreme honest on other things? Maybe it was a one night stand, and doesn't count as "affair".. what do I know.

Oh, btw, that with Gabin and beating her, if he did, then it was after the war in France. I don't know though, I have the feeling he was a big child.

[ChiO]

Then there's Fritz Lang's comments years after their fling:

"She wears three layers of make-up. One for the stage, one for the street, and one to go to bed with."

"She had terrible breasts." As the author rightfully states parenthetically thereafter, "Never mind the incomparable legs."

"If you want to go to bed and worship someone, she's all right."

-- Fritz Lang: The Nature of the Beast (Patrick McGilligan 1997)

Methinks Herr Lang was somewhat bitter.

[Libertine]

Then there's Fritz Lang's comments years after their fling:

"She wears three layers of make-up. One for the stage, one for the street, and one to go to bed with."

"She had terrible breasts." As the author rightfully states parenthetically thereafter, "Never mind the incomparable legs."

"If you want to go to bed and worship someone, she's all right."

-- Fritz Lang: The Nature of the Beast (Patrick McGilligan 1997)

Methinks Herr Lang was somewhat bitter.

Thanks ChiO!

I've never read these quotes before! Well, whatever happened between them, he was one of many lovers during the 30s. Seems he didn't mind her flaws, or whatever, while they had the affair. However, the way he treated her during Rancho Notorious... it was clear they were not the best of friends anymore.

The makeup quote. I wonder if he meant it literally. I do not think so?! I mean, more like she had three faces, eh?

[Rita Hayworth]

Libertine, Marlene Dietrich and Rita Hayworth were friends for life. They are often seen together & Marlene was an "unofficial mentor" to Rita. Here's some photos from my collection ... They have dinner together, Marlene often at her home quite often and Orson Welles (Rita's 2nd Husband) loves having her around, and so forth. True BFF behavior!

That's interesting. Wasn't she mainly there at their home because of Orson? I never read a lot about Marlene and Rita, in any of the books on Marlene. Maybe one on Rita says more about it?

Rita Hayworth never wrote an biography on her life because she wanted to keep a lot of things of herself. There are almost a dozen books on her life and I own two of these books one that Caren Roberts-Frenzel and other one from Charles Vidor (Her Favorite Director) entitled "Exciting Woman" that Mr. Vidor shared his experiences working with the Love Goddess.

Getting Back with Marlene Dietrich, she was also a good friend of Orson Welles too. Marlene enjoys listening to Orson as much as listening to Rita. So, in the answer to your question Libertine ... I never read a lot about Marlene and Rita in any of the books on Marlene ... the answer is that ...

They like to keep things private and secure. Most of all, they entrusted each other in such a manner that they rather not to share the world of their friendship because they had a very personal relationship with each other to the point of no disclosure.

Both Marlene and Rita made a vow to do so. Marlene did authored books about herself; but she made an earnest agreement with Rita to keep everything out so that their relationship remains private and secure.

[charliechaplinfan]

It's very interesting what you've said about Marlene and Rita, it's at odds about what I'd read MArlene was like. I was pretty sure that Orson was one of Marlene's conquests around the time of the magic shows, some which Rita helped with and then I think was replaced by Marlene after Harry Cohn thought she was commiting too much of her time. One thing about Marlene and Orson is that they stayed friends. Perhaps their friendship was more like the one she had with Hemingway, good friends but nothing further, which was unusual for Marlene. Regarding Rita, I couldn't imagine her disliking anyone unless they had given her more than just cause to feel that way.

ChiO, I love Fritz Lang's comments. It seems during the thirties she was really going through the numbers and surely they knew about one another, was he bitter because of this or did she malign him or dump him? Whichever she left a bitter taste in his mouth.

I remember reading that Ernst Lubitsch really did not like her yet when he died she was the first one around to his house along with Otto Preminger the only other person in Hollywood he disliked.

You might be right Libertine about Herbert Marshall, his loss of a leg didn't stop his libido, I had thought his affair with Swanson took place slightly later.

I think Marlene liked to mother some of her men, Gabin sounds like he fits into her favoured mould.

[ChiO]

It seems during the thirties she was really going through the numbers and surely they knew about one another, was he bitter because of this or did she malign him or dump him? Whichever she left a bitter taste in his mouth.

The Lang affair apparently was during the mid-'30s. From the Lang biography:

The actual physical relationship between the two apparently lasted about as long as it took them to wake up in the morning and have sunshiny second thoughts. "The fling ended,' wrote Steven Bach in Marlene Dietrich: Life and Legend, "when Marlene reached across the pillow and picked up Lang's phone to make a date with another man." Lang was one jump behind. "It was a race to see who would dump the other one first," explained screenwriter Silvia Richards, one of the director's lovers in later years.

Still, no unpleasantness transpired between Dietrich and Lang. The affair was a badge of honor for both. Dietrich added Lang to her long list; the director took pride in having stolen Dietrich away from rival director Josef von Sternberg. "He (Lang) liked to say that his #@*% was bigger than Josef von Sternberg's," said his Parisian friend, Pierre Rissient.

The Lang quotes I posted came later, after Lang perceived that Dietrich had betrayed him in some way during the filming of RANCHO NOTORIOUS.

[Libertine]

It's very interesting what you've said about Marlene and Rita, it's at odds about what I'd read MArlene was like. I was pretty sure that Orson was one of Marlene's conquests around the time of the magic shows, some which Rita helped with and then I think was replaced by Marlene after Harry Cohn thought she was commiting too much of her time. One thing about Marlene and Orson is that they stayed friends. Perhaps their friendship was more like the one she had with Hemingway, good friends but nothing further, which was unusual for Marlene. Regarding Rita, I couldn't imagine her disliking anyone unless they had given her more than just cause to feel that way.

I read 9 books on Marlene so far, and really I am still astonished about her and Rita. Surprise, surprise, you'll always find another piece to the puzzle named la Dietrich.

About Marlene and Orson - they were life long friends, and trusted each other, etc.. it's not clearly stated though if they had an affair. It's possible though, because, well, she's Marlene.

And, hey, news about Marlene and Hemingway.. well, no real news, but there'll be a book released about them next year. It'll be in German though. Yet the description said it'll feature letters, etc. and might give a new insight into their relation. So, maybe we'll really find out something new. That reminds me, I still need to get the book about Marlene and Remarque...

ChiO, I love Fritz Lang's comments. It seems during the thirties she was really going through the numbers and surely they knew about one another, was he bitter because of this or did she malign him or dump him? Whichever she left a bitter taste in his mouth.

Well, regarding Bach their liaison ended when she called another lover while being with Lang in his bedroom. Maria said, when Lang did betray her to Jean (???),... from then on, he didn't exist for her anymore, and she was usually good in doing that. He stopped to exist for her as a lover and as a friend. I can not remember how his betrayal exactly looked like. It's too silly, I read the book a month ago for the second time and I can not remember it.

I remember reading that Ernst Lubitsch really did not like her yet when he died she was the first one around to his house along with Otto Preminger the only other person in Hollywood he disliked.

I can not speak for Lubitsch, but she, according to Maria, didn't like him. Marlene said, when they were filming Angel, he always tried to put his hand between her legs, and pointed with his cigar at her and had leered at her. Maybe she changed her thoughts about him a bit later, I don't know, but when someone was ill and needed help, you could count on Marlene "racing" to you.

You might be right Libertine about Herbert Marshall, his loss of a leg didn't stop his libido, I had thought his affair with Swanson took place slightly later.

I can't remember exactly when Swanson and Marshall were together, I thought in the mid-thirties? So, ok, while doing Angel it's possible he was together with Gloria... anyhow.. I don't know. Have you read a book on him, anyone mentioned anything, I do not even know what he thought about her.

I think Marlene liked to mother some of her men, Gabin sounds like he fits into her favoured mould.

YEP. Indeed. She loved to mother anyone. I think it was Spoto who said, as soon as one got healthy again, or didn't need any help, she lost interest.

It seems during the thirties she was really going through the numbers and surely they knew about one another, was he bitter because of this or did she malign him or dump him? Whichever she left a bitter taste in his mouth.

The Lang affair apparently was during the mid-'30s. From the Lang biography:

The actual physical relationship between the two apparently lasted about as long as it took them to wake up in the morning and have sunshiny second thoughts. "The fling ended,' wrote Steven Bach in Marlene Dietrich: Life and Legend, "when Marlene reached across the pillow and picked up Lang's phone to make a date with another man." Lang was one jump behind. "It was a race to see who would dump the other one first," explained screenwriter Silvia Richards, one of the director's lovers in later years.

Still, no unpleasantness transpired between Dietrich and Lang. The affair was a badge of honor for both. Dietrich added Lang to her long list; the director took pride in having stolen Dietrich away from rival director Josef von Sternberg. "He (Lang) liked to say that his #@*% was bigger than Josef von Sternberg's," said his Parisian friend, Pierre Rissient.

The Lang quotes I posted came later, after Lang perceived that Dietrich had betrayed him in some way during the filming of RANCHO NOTORIOUS.

I read this right after I posted my reply. It's difficult.. it said she called Lang a Nazi during Rancho Notorious, etc., that he was just a Sadist, etc. You know... "having stolen Dietrich away from rival director Josef von Sternberg", so many men and women have "stolen" her from Jo all the time... he shouldn't believe he was so special.