Ingmar Bergman

[MichiganJ]

(Behind on my Bergman, sorry…)

Like Mr. Arkadin, I found [Through a Glass Darkly] uncinematic.

I actually see Through a Glass Darkly as richly cinematic, especially considering the sparse cast and fixed location. Nykvist's camera moves quite a bit, but is never obtrusive and he still captures the beauty and austerity of the location quite well (and in natural light, too.)

Bergman does a lot, too with his placement of actors in particular scenes. In the boat where Max confronts Gunnar about his diary it's a two-shot, but during Gunnar's confessional, he's isolated in a single close-up. Indeed, Gunnar seems to be the odd man odd in many shots, including the play (yes, he's the only audience member, but there's barely an establishing shot from behind him that also includes the stage and instead we see the actors (and musician!), and then Gunnar's reactions.)

Granted, Bergman does use a few lengthy one-shots, mainly of Harriet when she's alone. Most notably, perhaps, is when she discovers her father's diary, but even here Nyvist's camera moves ever so slow slowly in. In any case, Harriet's performance throughout is so nuanced and perfectly paced that an arbitrary cut in the oner would ruin the achieved effect.

While Through a Glass Darkly is (one) of my favorite Bergman films, the coda just doesn't work. The Sunday School-ism sounds good but actually means nor answers anything and raises more questions (which, maybe, are answered in Bergman's next film.)

I do, however, really like my man Gunnar's character and how he, as an artist, feels guilt over stealing the lives of his friends and loved ones for his art (like Bergman himself?) That scene after he gives the gifts, which he knows are worthless, and sobs in his room (and even extends his arms in a cross--too much?) pretty much defines his character. And, as mentioned, Harriet gives one of her finest performances.

[charliechaplinfan]

A couple more musings before I retire for the night.

The pastor talks to the church layman before the second service, the layman is troubled by his reading of the bible, he points to the emphasis of the passion being wrong, it's emphasis is on the physical suffering whereas the true emphasis should be placed on the silence of God as he suffered on the cross. The film takes place from the morning until three in the afternoon, the same time as Christ's suffering on the cross.

[charliechaplinfan]

I hadn't recognised Bergman in Gunnar's portrayal, now you've spoken of it it seems so obvious. You must watch Winter Light I enjoyed that even more.

I'm glad i started this thread, you guys are helping me understand Bergman and his films

[MichiganJ]

Winter Light is my favorite Bergman film, and is somewhere on my top ten favorite films of all time.

Three hours of a very bad day in the life of poor Gunnar who not only offers no consolation to one of his parishioners who then kills himself, but also receives a letter from his lover that pulls no punches. Both the suicide and the letter force Gunnar to confront his crisis of faith--all that, and he has the flu, too. (Gunnar actually was ill during the filming, something which Bergman obviously exploited.)

Again I'm a fan of Nykvist's cinematography, and here he has no scenic seascapes and endless daylight (as in Through a Glass); instead it's just the opposite. This is probably the coldest film I've seen.

While Through a Glass used the music of Bach to great effect, there is no music in Winter Light, and I can't imagine it any other way. Lots of silence in this film--not just God's.

So many great scenes but by far the standout is Ingrid's reading of her letter. Close-up, facing the camera, and several minutes long. As a viewer, you can hardly look away (even reading the subtitles is difficult), and it's hard not to believe that Ingrid is addressing you personally. This foreshadows a similar (and even more impressive) sequence in Persona, and both, in my opinion, are as daring and great as Bergman gets.

[charliechaplinfan]

I can appreciate why Winter Light would be so high up on your list of favorite films. I concur that Ingrid Thulin's reading her letter directly to the camera is one of the best moments in the film, she's so certain in her delivery, when face to face with Gunnar she becomes all the things he dislikes in her, anxious, timid, fussing. That's why she writes it down, so she can say everything she wants to without becoming hesitant. It's a powerful film with powerful themes. I'm liking the photography in Bergman's movies, the use of the church is soothing and fimiliar, perhaps that's just personal to me. Another thing I've noticed about his movies is the noises on the soundtrack when he's filming outdoors, I'm sure all directors use such noises but in Bergman's films they become the soundtrack. The scene of Gunnar going to the site of the suicide, the sound is muffled with the sound of the wind and wildlife.

As I'm relying on a rental service today it was the turn of Summer with Monika made in 1953, it partly had the feel of a British kitchen sink drama yet it predates them. Monika is played by Harriet Anderson the dying sister from Cries and Whispers. Monika works at a greengrocers and starts going steady with Harry who works nearby, neither is committed to their job, both have had troubled childhoods, Monika has a father that beats her and lots of siblings and Harry is motherless and has a father who is ailing. After fighting with her father one night Monika runs off to live of the boat, Harry joins her, after losing his job they go off on the boat exploring the Swedish coast. This is the summer of the title, a carefree, joyful summer, spent doing whatever they fancy and eating very little. They survive the summer but have to return to the city when the weather gets colder, Monika is pregnant and Harry has dreams of becoming an engineer and supporting his wife and baby. Once back in Stockholm, Harry's auntie arranges for them to get married, when their daughter arrives Harry has a job and is well thought of by his coworkers. The young family don't settle very well, Monika resents being at home with June the baby and resents Harry's new found enthusiasm for his work. When he goes out of town she has a lover back for the night, Harry returns early. Having broken the marriage vows the marriage breaks up with the baby going to live with Harry.

[charliechaplinfan]

In many respects it's a simple and very beautiful movie. The love scenes are filmed beautifully by Bergman and convey the tie between the couple who's relationship even from the outset seems driven by Monika. I thought the film very much about Harry's growth through life, he takes to his responsibilites well and reemployed is a different kind of employee than before he went adventuring with Monika. He seems to have got the sense of adventure out of his soul whereas Monika retains hers and the reality of having a baby and having to stay home with no company and having no money for clothes or nights out is something she can't cope with and she yearns to break out, which she does in her infidelity. One wonders if Bergman was in tune with post natal depression, unlikely, it is more a comment on her character. The film features Harriet Anderson nude, so beautifully filmed, I wonder how many men let themselves get dragged to this film by their girl to get a happy surprise.

[charliechaplinfan]

I watched Persona last night, how covenienent for my rental service to send it the same weekend that it's shown on TCM. Kingrat is right, the opening montage of Persona can be a little off putting, especially one of the images that flickered across the screen just as my husband looked up, giving completely the worng impression of the film. Some of the images I felt had more bearing than others on the film. The boy on the mortuary slab (was it a girl that changed into a boy?) is this Mrs Vogler's son or Alma's aborted foetus.

A strange offering from Bergman, it's strong point I felt was the visual style of the film, a black and white film that would have lost half it's mystery had it been filmed in colour. The actresses are a contrast, Liv Ullman looks are soft with flowing hair and Bibi Anderson's features look sharper with a short haircut. The actress has her troubles, she's silent after drying up on stage but this seems to be a defence either of her own choosing or against her will. I thought she'd chosen deliberately to cut herself off. Alma/Bibi Anderson appears a very normal woman, a nurse who is chosen to look after Elizabet, Mrs Vogler, they make a connection and go to stay by the seaside where the atomosphere is thought to be better for Elizabet's treatment. Once there the women relax although Elizabet doesn't talk, Alma has a drink and pours out some of her most vivid and personal memories. Their relationship is very loving, very personal. When Alma goes to bed, Elizabet goes into her room, the visuals are so stunning in this film. One wonders where the relationship is going between them, Bergman isn't scared of pushing any taboo, that much I've learnt. However the next day the relationship starts to disintergrate between them when Alma reads a letter Elizabet is sending back to her doctor. For those who are watching it tonight I'm not going to say anything further except that it's a film that makes the viewer question what actually happens and what has been dreamt or thought.
Kingrat compares it to L'Eclisse, I remember being dissappointed when I watched L'Eclisse the first time, perhaps I wasn't ready for it and should watch it again. I look forward to discussing this film more when others have enjoyed it.

[Mr. Arkadin]

My time is rather limited these days, so I'll try to be brief:

There are a lot of different views on the opening montage. Some believe it’s an overview of Elisabet’s mind. Others consider it commentary on the film itself. There's another idea that perhaps this is a journey through Bergman's life and films. Much like Citizen Kane, this is a work where the opening is jarring and images dominate the frame, but there is a story behind them. Also as with Kane, we are given knowledge that the actors are unaware of.

Made the same year as Seconds, Persona is a film about personal identity. This was the first of a series of films Bergman made (The Disintegration Trilogy) which dealt with the breakdown of communication in humanity.

Elisabet, an actress, stops speaking in the middle of a performance of Electra (which deals with identity and familial struggle and also has ties to The Stronger, as correctly noted by Kingrat). Is this because she is afraid of losing herself in her art? Or perhaps in a world full of sorrow (as she recoils from the Tibetan monk who immolates himself on TV) she feels helpless as a role-player, unable to make a difference in the real world?

Alma is a woman who lives in reality, but dreams of being a star like Elisabet, so much, that she begins to lose her identity and is in danger of becoming what she worships. But how can she become something that is an illusion?

The Opening:
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We begin in darkness (just like the start of any movie), then the carbon arcs and the film begins to roll. Right from the beginning, we are being warned that we are watching an artistic expression. This is not reality, but perceived reality. Bergman shows many examples of this, including an erect phallus (exhibitionism), early cinema history, the death of a sheep and hand with a nail driven through it (artistic sacrifice), the dead reborn (Alma’s son?), where a boy reaches first towards the camera, then to the blurred image of Elisabet’s face superimposed on Alma (the book he is reading is A Hero of Our Time—another interesting reference point), and so on.

Throughout this work, Bergman seems to be questioning truth. In fact, in an interview about Persona he stated: “What is true and when does one tell the truth?” Thus, the scene in Alma’s bedroom is her perspective or relative view. I do not see it as sexual (as some have claimed), but a dream of Alma’s intense desire to transcend her boring existence and become someone else (Elisabet's confused look the next morning indicates she is ignorant of the episode) . Alma will soon discover that she is neither strong enough to become Elisabet, or to hold on to the shreds of her own personality.



Like the knight in The Seventh Seal (1957), who finds emptiness in the features of a young witch to be burned, Bergman’s work explores the terrain of radical skepticism, where the Latin meaning of the film’s title is defined simply as a mask. In the grand search for truth, Persona reminds us that life is like film in a camera that plays upon a blank screen. While it has a beginning and end, what we see is often subject to interpretation and might have no basis in reality.

[jdb1]

I haven't gotten too far into Persona yet. I watched about 20 minutes of what I recorded last night. I have seen the film before, but not for many years.

I do think the opening is a bit show-offy on Bergman's part, and to me the montage style is an echo of pure German Expressionism. However, I thought I saw a thread there, which is the concept of helplessness. Even the out-of-focus faces, and the boy attempting to touch them, spoke of frustration and helplessness. Mr. A brings this up when he notes Alma 's frustration with herself as she is and her feeling that she is unable to do anything about it. Her very first monologue, speaking into the camera, tells us that she is not entirely happy with the pedestrian future she sees for herself. The use of the immolation newsreels says the same to me -- how frustrated with a situation must a person be to be willing to commit suicide in such a horrible way to make a point?

Bear in mind also that, at least here in the US, the common perception of the Sweden of that period was still as a place with a shockingly high suicide rate. Based on what we saw of Bergman's work, we thought of Sweden as a place of darkness and despair (although Bergman made lighter films, most of which we never saw in this country except at colleges and film festivals). Perhaps Hedwig can give us some idea of how Bergman was received in his own country.

I find that the themes of frustration with oneself and the attempt to become someone elsean are treated in a much more straightforward, "American" way in the heavily-Persona influenced Robert Altman film Three Women. Showing these two one after the other would, I think, be both interesting and instructive in understanding both.

[charliechaplinfan]

Thanks both of you for your views on Persona, it's opened up my understanding of the film. Like Mr Arkadin, I don't think it was a relationship of a sexual nature, born out by Elizabet's ignorance the next morning but it was a demostrative relationship, something that would transcend the acceptable in nurse/patient care. It is a fantasy though, a fantasy within a fantasy, the realtionship is seen from Alma's point of view and at first the sympathy is for Alma. She has revealed more of herself and laid her sould bare to someone she has trust in and the trust is broken by Elizabet's letter to the doctor. Is it Elizabet's fault, Elizabet being ill and in need of care or is it Alma's fault because she should have known better?

Has Elizabet found strength and contentment in her silence? It would appear so. Is Alma content and does she draw strength from her normal life, her good job, her engagement? No, beneath the surface is a fragile shell. Elizabet isn't the instigator of any of the drama apart from her own silence, in everything else she follows. She seems to want to comfort Alma.

The episode with Gunnar Bjornstand as Elizabet's blind husband is the fantasy that makes me question everything that has gone before.

Last night I watched The Passion of Anna, I know we have a thread on that film so I'll attach my thoughts to that thread. I did notice another reference to violence in the sixties, there are shots of a Vietnamese man being led to execution, it's a famous news clip. I did see a great deal of similarity in Persona and The Passion of Anna. Liv Ullman and Bibi Andersson play two friends, both emotionally unstable, both involved with the leading man, Max Von Sydow. Both films leave unanswered questions.

I didn't know the statistic about Sweden's high suicide rate. Hedvig is away for most of the summer so probably won't grace this thread for a few weeks but I'm sure she'll be delighted that there are so many fans amongst us. We didn't really talk much about Bergman when we were together for a few days, our tendency was to talk about silent movies, it will be interesting to see what she says.

[charliechaplinfan]

Something I really like about directors like Bergman, Kurosawa and Ford is that they use the same actors time and again. It seems to me that Bergman really likes to push the boundaries with his actors, getting completely different and distinct performances out of them. Watching a few of Bergman's films has really made me appreciate the skills of Gunnar Bjornstrand, Max Von Sydow, Ingrid Thulin, Harriet Andersson, Bibi Andersson and Liv Ullman, with the added compliment that all the women are very striking too. Sven Nykvist as a cinematographer is surely one of the world's greatest, his Bergman films are gorgeous to look at, a feast for the eyes.

Below is what I posted on The Passion of Anna thread, after typing it out I read on the imdb that it was filmed on the island where Bergman and Liv Ullman lived and that they had just broken up.

I rented The Passion of Anna last night, only the second colour film of Bergman's that I've seen, the first being Cries And Whispers which uses it's colour so dramatically and beautifully. The Passion of Anna is more muted in terms of colour but beautiful nevertheless. How is it that Sweden may be a cold place, snow is shown in clips but it doesn't look cold? Is it intentionally coloured to reflect the characters.

When Max Von Sydow first came on talking to camera about his character I was surprised and quite thrilled that I was watching another Bergman film with a quirk (both Liv Ullman and Max Von Sydow look better as themselves). The relationship of the two girls, Liv/Anna and Bibi/Eva, friendly with them both being needy but in different ways. The relationship with Bibi Andersson is far more tender and truthful than the one with Anna and more suited to Andreas, it's brief and burns itself out. Eva warns Andreas about Anna, he mustn't have listened because they are soon living together. It's at the start of his relationship with Eva that the animal mutilation begins, the daschund being the first calamity, injured and rescued by Andreas.

The animal mutilation and torture is personally quite difficult to watch but I guess this is the point. He doesn't suggest what has happened, he puts it on screen albeit with fake blood. This is where I have problems with the narrative, I can accpet that it's a parellel to the relationship of Andreas and Anna but it's unfinished, perhaps this is why it failed, in the viewers mind the crimes will get worse and worse, an innocent man has been tortured and committed suicide. Four people can't find happiness, it's a sad ending. Is it a commentary on life? I hope not ,it's too bleak.

It's a film with a lot to recommend it but don't watch it if you're already feeling blue.

[ChiO]

Revisiting PERSONA after a long absence, I found the performances to be inspired, the composition and photography to be outstanding, and the issues addressed to be intriguing with room for varying interpretations. And yet...

I was unable to connect with it. The dialogue...THE HORROR! Too talky for my taste, I recognize that Alma must prattle on and on so as to emphasize Elisabet's silence, and I could conceptually deal with that. But, as I was sensing fear and loneliness, here comes Alma to tell me that she feels fear and loneliness, and to ask Elisabet whether she feels fear and loneliness and whether she thinks fear and loneliness is what Life is about. Do I sense an issue with a pregnancy? Yes! And here's Alma to pummel me on that issue. On and on. Talk if you need to, but please don't tell me everything that I'm supposed to be feeling. Let the visuals do some (most) of the filling in of the emotional landscape.

It may read as a marvelous play, but as a movie I found it...uncinematic. *

Now I'm afraid to revisit THE VIRGIN SPRING and CRIES AND WHISPERS and other Bergman films for which I have fond memories, though maybe I'll risk watching the former since Bergman was not the writer.

* Except for the opening and closing sequences, which allowed the camera and the silence -- blessed silence, as it turns out -- to engage me.

[charliechaplinfan]

I hope the dissappointment will be limited to Persona. As for me I'm just enjoying the trip through the Bergman movies my rental service are sending.

Today i started watching Shame but had to stop it to go and fetch the kids, now I'm waiting for them to go to bed and I can resume my watching, so far, it's gripping.

[MichiganJ]

It may read as a marvelous play, but as a movie I found it...uncinematic.

The screenplay to Persona is not written like a traditional script and reads pretty well.

I really like Persona and revisit it often. Bergman uses mirrors and reflections a lot in his films, but never more so than here. There's also an interesting exploration of the artist and the audience and what that means. I also like how Bergman breaks the "fourth wall" and not only periodically reminds us that we are watching a movie, but at one point Eliabet actually snaps a photo of the camera (or "us"--That's me in my jammies.)

While the New Wave were influenced by Bergman (Léaud stands by a poster of Summer With Monika in 400 Blows), I see Persona, at least in part, as Bergman being influenced by the New Wave, particularly Godard.