Wagon Master (1950) - January 16, 2009 1:00 p.m. EST

[MissGoddess]

I always thought Donald Pleasance in "Will Penny" was a prime example of this type. I cannot come up with an earlier version - yet.

You said it. He freaked me out as a kid when I first saw this movie on TV.

[ken123]

In Two Rode Together Ford also had a nitwit family comprised of father Ford Rainey, and sons Harry Carey Jr, and Ken Curtis.

[MissGoddess]

GaryJ,
I really enjoyed your posts on Wagon Master and 7 Women...you know your Ford. We're so
happy to have you posting with us. I can talk about his movies till everyone's ready to throw
rocks at me, so I'm very happy you pulled up a rockin' chair.

I have to say, I was more impacted by the Clantons in My Darling Clementine, viscerally at least.
But your words about the slightly different motivations and perhaps even the psychological make-up
of the two families is interesting. Historically, weren't the Clantons basically in the same business
dealings and Wyatt, and their coming head to head had more to do with competition than anything
really personal? That is, until someone got killed.

The Cleggs reappear, name intact but with different actors, in Two Rode Together, and are just
as weird and sadistically psychotic...however, they ARE given a slight "justification" behind their
brutality, as they apparently did lose the mother/wife to Indian violence. Since racism is a dominant
theme in Two Rode Together, their hostilities are laced with bigotry.

What I have always believed most significant about the crazy, dysfunctional families in Ford films is the one
common denominator among them: they all lack a wife or mother in their lives. I have always strongly felt
that the presence of a woman in a man's life, in a home, is absolutely indispensible in the Fordian world,
and the lack of a woman always marks the men as damaged, or in the case of these families, dangerous.

Hope some of that made sense, I'm not up to snuff this morning.

[MissGoddess]

In Two Rode Together Ford also had a nitwit family comprised of father Ford Rainey, and sons Harry Carey Jr, and Ken Curtis.

Kenny you read my mind!

[JackFavell]

Wow, Goddess, that is really smart! I never noticed that the Cleggs (and Clantons) were motherless - that is a great catch. Even in The Searchers, Hank Worden was like a motherless child - looking to simply find a home. Not that he was an insane murderer, but still....

Gary I am so glad you brought this up, it is a very interesting perspective.

[MissGoddess]

Jackie, I appreciate your insights into dear 'Ol Mose, and the benign quality to some
of Ford's "tetched" characters. They are often blissful chilren of nature but also
mirrors for the foibles of other characters. Your words about the director's inclusiveness
are right on point, I believe. He reveals his kinship with Shakespeare in this aspect, I think.

I've often wanted to develop my ideas about the importance of women in the lives of
Ford's principal male characters (as well as what I believe are the aspects of
Ford's dominant themes most in tune with female sensibilities). It's probably the one
area of his work I feel most strongly about that hasn't gotten as much "play" in discussions
of his films. Maybe one day.

[JackFavell]

Oh gosh, you simply must do it!

NO ONE writes about Ford in that way, and yet, it is one of the strongest themes running through his work. He has, for me, anyway, the strongest, most complex and MODERN view of women and the way they lead their lives of any of the directors of that time. Sometimes I think he is portraying my soul on film. His women are extremely layered, with all kinds of complex and sometimes opposing feelings. I have been quite shocked to hear people (probably who are not particularly familiar with him) suggest he is not good with women or their issues - saying that he only deals with them on a Madonna like level. I think he is all about women, and it's another case of people being shallow - not really looking at the undertext (is that a word? it is now) of his stories. Ask any woman if she can identify with Mary Kate, or Laurie Jorgensen, and I think you will get the answer to whether Ford was good at portraying women.

[MissGoddess]

Oh gosh, you simply must do it!

NO ONE writes about Ford in that way, and yet, it is one of the strongest themes running through his work. He has, for me, anyway, the strongest, most complex and MODERN view of women and the way they lead their lives of any of the directors of that time. Sometimes I think he is portraying my soul on film. His women are extremely layered, with all kinds of complex and sometimes opposing feelings. I have been quite shocked to hear people (probably who are not particularly familiar with him) suggest he is not good with women or their issues - saying that he only deals with them on a Madonna like level. I think he is all about women, and it's another case of people being shallow - not really looking at the undertext (is that a word? it is now) of his stories. Ask any woman if she can identify with Mary Kate, or Laurie Jorgensen, and I think you will get the answer to whether Ford was good at portraying women.

I'm so thrilled to know you feel that way! I just couldn't respond the way I do
to his films if he was only about the masculine viewpoint. I just couldn't! I may
be a fan of westerns...but of military themes? No way! Yet despite all the dominant
"maculine" type settings and structures in his films, I feel a deep connection to
what means most to me as a woman! I love what you say about how you find
your own soul in his films. For a woman to say that is very significant, in my
opinion, and worth digging into more.
You've inspired me!

I still haven't forgiven one talking head in Nick Redman's documentary (in the
Ford-at-Fox collection) for calling Ford's cinematic depiction of women as "prehistoric".
I about threw the DVD out the window.

[movieman1957]

I'd love to read it.

What a discussion we might have afterwards.

[MissGoddess]

Thank you, Chris. I'll have to organize my babbling notes one day and see what nonsense I can come up with
to add to the mountain of Fordiana out there.

[JackFavell]

Sorry! My computer crashed and burned while I was trying to respond.

Oh yes! I am very excited about your writing this up! Someone has got to look at Ford from this perspective.... because I would never have gotten so attached to his movies without characters like Beth and Angharad and Bronwyn in HGWMV. These are very real women to me, facing all kinds of different situations, with lots of hardships and loneliness to face....

Look at another movie - Fort Apache. There you also have three generations of women, Olive Carey, Anna Lee and Shirley Temple - the scene that for me is absolutely the strongest visual in the film outside of the final charge is this:



And you know I love Denver in WM - I swear, between all these women, and their experiences, I feel like my whole lifeis up there on film.

[MissGoddess]

What an exquisite shot in its simplicity...I don't think I ever noticed the generational
aspect of the three women poised in a line...what a lovely composition. I like the reflective expression
on each face. Each is reacting in her own private way to what is happening, and it also reflects on all women
everywhere faced with similar situations. Beautiful example, Jackie.

[pvitari]

What a beautiful shot. Which is why Fort Apache is on my screencapping list, though a bit down. My goal is eventually to do the entire cavalry trilogy.

Was it here or somewhere else where I read a comment that J.A. Place (who wrote a great book on John Ford's westerns; a beat-up much used copy lives on my bookshelf -- she also did a book on his non-westerns) felt that Ford's westerns were really woman-oriented films, because they were about "female" concerns -- community, family, relationships?

[Gary J.]

One of the underlying themes of the great 'action' directors who learned their trade in the silent era
and went on to greater acclaim in the sound era (Ford, Hawks, Wellman, Fleming, Walsh..etc.) is
the pattern of strong roles for both men & women in their films. Wellman and Walsh gravitated
towards headstrong impetuous dames. Hawks spent a lifetime recreating his version of the ideal
woman on film (independent, articulate and sexy) while Ford and Fleming allowed the story to dictate
their women's behavior. The one consensus all of these men believed in was that the story was key.
And their stories were populated with well-rounded characters who the audience could root for. From
there they would embellish the roles on the set using their own innate sense.

Gary J.

[MissGoddess]

I believe Place did touch on it, but she did not elaborate too much in either book, which surprised me, considering she's a woman.