Q & A for Dwayne Epstein, Author of LEE MARVIN, POINT BLANK

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Re: Q & A for Dwayne Epstein, Author of LEE MARVIN, POINT BLANK

Post by movieman1957 »

Then read the book I shall. Thanks for the answer. I noticed he had quite a TV catalog but I've never been able to see much of it. Thanks for coming by.
Chris

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Re: Q & A for Dwayne Epstein, Author of LEE MARVIN, POINT BLANK

Post by Dwayne Epstein »

kingrat wrote:Lee Marvin's Oscar winner for Cat Ballou was a surprise, because most people, including Rod Steiger, seemed to think Rod Steiger would win for The Pawnbroker. Did Lee Marvin have any idea he might win? Why do you think he won, given that Oscar doesn't usually smile on comic performances, no matter how skillful and entertaining?

I once described Point Blank as "acid noir." I'm not sure I completely follow the story, but that may not matter. One of our members articulated the theory that Lee is in fact dying, and the film represents his hallucinations before death. Some of the films in the late 60s and early 70s had a fair amount of drug-taking by the actors, writers, director, etc. Do you know if that was the case with Point Blank?

Thank you so much for talking with us. I look forward to reading your book.
Marvin's Oscar win for Cat Ballou was indeed a surprise but in some ways, not at all. You're right when you state Steiger was the favorite that year for The Pawnbroker and that comedy performances rarely if ever win Oscars. Keep in mind, the competition was pretty stiff over all that year, with other nominees Laurence Olivier as Othello, Richard Burton in The Spy Who Came in From the Cold and Marvin's Ship of Fools co-star, Oskar Werner. In fact, Marvin himself felt if he was nominated at all that year it would be for his supporting role in Fools. As it turned out, Holllywood buzz and publicity, then as now played a major part in his Cat Ballou nomination. One of Marvin's publicists, Paul Wasserman worked hard on his client's campaign, which included booking many talk show appearances. I don't know if there are many folks here who remember seeing Marvin on Carson, Merv Griffin, David Frost, etc. back in the day but he was always a hoot on talk shows. Audiences saw a side of him that was both endearing and dangerous as even he never knew what he might say or do on talk shows. Some Oscars are also given for an actor's overall career and Marvin was well-known within the industry as a veteran actor who seemed to be parodying many of his previous roles with Cat Ballou. For Marvin, as well as director Elliot Silverstein, Kid Shelleen was more than just a funny drunken gunslinger. There was a level of tragedy to his character that the actor connected with and Academy voters sensed as well. As the award season started, he began winning at the Moscow Film Festival, The Golden Globes and other contests. It's fascinating to read Marvin's comments in the months and weeks leading up to the Oscars in which reporters asked him to handicap his chances. At first he laughed it off but as the date drew closer his comments bore the unmistakable mark of a man who thought he had a solid chance. By the night of the Awards, a series of strange events involving his then girlfriend Michele Triola and his estranged wife Betty, culminated at the end the of the festivities with one of the popular wins in Oscar history up that time. The moral of the story? You never can tell!
As to Point Blank being 'acid noir,' I can understand that sense the film gives off but I've never heard from anyone involved in the film that actual drug-ingestion by anyone was a factor in the film's creation. The style was a result of a group of creative people trying very hard to create something vastly different than what had ever been seen before. They seemed to succeed so well that film flopped when first released, a classic example of something being a head of its time. Luckily, time caught up with the modern noir classic and is now considered by many to be one of the best films of the mid-to-late 60s. Theories abound among film fans as to whether any of the story actually happens at all. Your theory of Walker dreaming the end of his life is a popular one, as well as one in which he never may even be alive, being a sort angel of death to those who have wronged him. It's very much in the spirt of Faulkner's As I Lay Dying, or Bierce's An Occurence at Owl Creek Bridge. Whatever theory works, it made the audience pay attention and THINK. One of the aspects sadly missing in many films today in which filmmakers feel it necessary to hold the audience's hand and explain everything as if we were all twelve-year-olds. In Point Blank, you either get it or you don;t and I personally prefer such storytelling techniques.
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Re: Q & A for Dwayne Epstein, Author of LEE MARVIN, POINT BLANK

Post by Dwayne Epstein »

Lzcutter wrote:Mr. Epstein,

Thank you so much for spending the weekend with us! I've been a major Lee fan for more years than I can count. My parents took me to see Cat Ballou and I went to see Paint Your Wagon a few years later. (I even owned the soundtrack album).

I know that Lee was slated to star in Sam Peckinpah's The Wild Bunch but opted instead to make Wagon. Did he have any regrets at not playing Pike Bishop in the Bunch?
Glad to hear your fan of Paint Your Wagon as I've noticed it's been getting a renewed and revised opinion in recent years. At the time of its release, it was a classic example of Hollywood excess and all that was written or said about it at the time revolved around this point....that and Lee Marvin's growly singing voice. The passage of time and the popularity of home entertainment has allowed the dust to pass on such opinions and a clearer view has allowed Paint Your Wagon to be seen in a much more objective light. Yes, the production is wildly over the top but aspects of the film, such as it's beautiful cinematography of Baker Oregon, the impressive and period correct sets and costumes, and most of all, Lee Marvin's wonderfully wild & woolly performance as Ben Rumson have definitely stood the test of time. In interviews at the time, he always claimed he never regretted not making The WIld Bunch since he felt the final version lacked what he called 'The White Eye" (explained on p. 203) from Peckinpah's production. Of course, if you believe actions speak louder than words, I've included several stories in which Lee Marvin proved he did indeed regret not making the film and made a spectacle of himself at several screenings to prove the point. There are many ironies in the career of Lee Marvin and one of the biggest is the fact that the man responsible for creating the most realistic approach to violence in American films, was left out of the production of the American classic most responsible for the way in which violence is perceived to this day. Another instance of a sad yet true irony.
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Re: Q & A for Dwayne Epstein, Author of LEE MARVIN, POINT BLANK

Post by Dwayne Epstein »

JackFavell wrote:Thank you for replying to my questions, Mr. Epstein. I absolutely have to get your book! It's in the works as we speak. :D

That's fascinating about Ford and Marvin... I can see the two of them as almost mirror images of one another, they sound so very much alike, both tough tough men on the outside, but artistic and anxiety driven on the inside. I know we are on the subject of Marvin, but is there anything else about Ford or Woody Strode you can tell us?

You've talked about Marvin writing, helping script The Wild Bunch (oh what a movie, and yet I can't help wondering what it would have been like with Marvin, WOW), did he do any writing on any other films? Was he in on the creative process on Point Blank for instance?

Although I have a male character's name here, I am a woman, and I'm curious about Marvin's relationships with women. I'm also very curious if there are any stories about Gloria Grahame? Jeanne Moreau? He and Jeanne Moreau are so tender together.

Are there any stories about the making of Bad Day At Black Rock? I'd also love to hear about Hell in the Pacific.

Im VERY glad you asked about Woody Strode & John Ford, as I discovered something about their relationship I never knew or read about anywhere until I interviewed Woody and then had it confirmed by others. This really has nothing to do with Lee Marvin so it didn't go in my book but this is the perfect venue for it. When John Ford hurt his back after tumbling down the stairs in his home, Woody Strode took it upon himself to slept at the foot of his bed and when Ford couldn't sleep because of the intense pain, Woody would get up in the middle of the night and massage his back until he could fall back to sleep. He did that for 5 months. Talk about dedication! In return, when Woody's mother passed away, it happened at a time when he had very little money and when Ford found out, he picked up the tab for all the funeral expenses. Those kind of things might not make interesting reading to some film scholars but I was impressed and can now thank you for giving me the opportunity to restate it in this forum!

As to other aspects of Lee Marvin's creative cinematic input, I can tell you that he may not have technically been involved in writing, producing or directing, but he was the kind of an actor who definitely had more than a hand in the creation of what you saw on screen. One of the reasons he worked with the same directors often was that they valued his input and allowed him to be creative on set. Nowhere was that more evident than with John Boorman on Point Blank. Angie DIckinson told me that Boorman and Marvin were often huddled in a corner of the set discussing the best way to shoot a scene and she was curious as to the content of those confabs. He often surprised even Boorman onset with his ideas. Do you remember the scene when he bursts in on his wife and then settles in on the couch to hear her side of the story? Well, in the original version of the script, Marvin had dialogue, asking her what happened. It was Marvin's idea to say anything at all. Eventually, his costar Sharon Acker got the idea and then just began talking. I think it's brilliant example of Marvin's creative input. Years later he stated that Point Blank was one of the most personal films he ever made and watched it a few years before his death, finding it most disturbing. A LOT of what went into that film came directly from the acotr's personal life.

Because of the kind of films Lee Marvin made he didn't have a lot of female costars. However, Marvin took great pride in his work, even if he was a heavy and when an actress, such as Donna Reed claimed she would never work with him again because he scared the hell out of her, Marvin found it to be the highest compliment possible. As to his Big Heat costar, I heard one story about Gloria Grahame from costar Chris Alciade concerning the actress's falsely protruding upper lip that I found most hysterical! Once again, check it out at
Your choice of Jeanne Moreau is a good one since it may not be remembered any more but they had a quite an intense during the making of the vastly underrated Monte Walsh. In fact when Marvin married for the second time after the film was over, most of his closest associates thought he had run off and married Moreau!

As to Bad Day at Black Rock and/or Hell in the Pacific there are indeed some wonderful stories invovling both films. I won't detail them here as they are both covered pretty well in my book but I can tell you about one of the most famous stories about making Bad Day at Black Rock. There is a Hollywood legend that says during the film Lee Marvin asked for his character's motivation in a given scene. According to the legend, a cranky and tired Spencer Tracy told Marvin, "Look kid, I'm too old and too rich to put up with this crap, so let's just do the scene and forget about motivation." It's great story but according to costar John Erickson and writer Millard Kaufman, both of whom were on set everyday, it simply s not true. Makes sense since Marvin was not a fan of 'method actors' searching for their motivation, either, but had the utmost respect for Tracy. Speaking of such urban legends, the one concerning Marvin & Bob Keeshan (Capt. Kangaroo) during WWII is a made up tale, as well. I have no idea how these things get started!
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Re: Q & A for Dwayne Epstein, Author of LEE MARVIN, POINT BLANK

Post by Dwayne Epstein »

kingme wrote:Mr. Epstein,

Thank you for your insightful explaination of the questions that I gave you to respond to. I understand very clearly what you've said and looking forward reading your book someday. I have a friend that orders books for me and she pretty much get any book that I want. I will get her a copy of your book from her. I love reading autobiographies of famous people that in the spotlight ...

One more question,

He did a lot of television work in his career and what (a two part question) ... What Television Series that he enjoyed the most and What Television Series that he did not enjoy the most :?:
Good question(s). Since Marvin appeared on TV from the medium's infancy back in the very early 50's, he formed some very definite opinions about it but not necessarily about specific episodes. I can tell you he absolutely despised working on his own show M Squad, even though he was one of the show's producers. The long and tedious shooting schedule, the mediocre scripts, and the blatant commercialism (he was contractually obligated to do on air commercials for sponsor Pall Mall while in character as Lt. Ballinger) all conspired to create an environment for Marvin that was tantamount to slavery. It was so strenuous for him that the entire run of the show came very close to ending his relationship with agent Meyer Mishkin and proved to be the begining of the end of his first marriage. He had no problem saying as much in interviews at the time, which journalists loved but outraged NBC executives.

As to his favorite shows, his dislike of the medium made that hard to discern but on occassion he would comment on a given program AFTER it aired. The final product was something that mattered in terms of his like or dislike and he clearly liked his performance on The Twilight Zone episode called Steel(later made into the film Real Steel with Hugh Jackman) as well as his frequent appearances on the anthology show GE Theater and the episodic show The Untouchables. When film work was scarce he even made appearances on game shows, like an early version of a Hollywood Squares-like show called The Celebrity Game hosted by Carl Reiner in which Marvin appeared very loose and funny, to boot. Of all his TV work, I think it's safe to say the one he found most rewarding however was an episode of an anthology show called People Need People depicting the true story of the pioneering effect of group therapy among combat veterans. He earned an Emmy-nomination for it and the show's real-life main character, Dr. Harry Willner (played by Arthur Kennedy on the show) befriended Marvin and the two men even staged a version of the show using an all convict cast at San Quentin prison!
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Re: Q & A for Dwayne Epstein, Author of LEE MARVIN, POINT BLANK

Post by Dwayne Epstein »

movieman1957 wrote:Then read the book I shall. Thanks for the answer. I noticed he had quite a TV catalog but I've never been able to see much of it. Thanks for coming by.
He did indeed have an impressive catalogue of TV work which sadly, is very hard to access these days, in spite of our technically advanced world. I was able to view some of his work via The Musuem of Television & Radio (now called The Paley Center) and found the experience quite eye-opening! I would love it if venues such as Netflix, Hulu, and the like could focus more on the older, obscure TV work than constantly barraging the public with the chance to see last night's episode of Mad Men. Sorry, just ranting a little....
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Re: Q & A for Dwayne Epstein, Author of LEE MARVIN, POINT BLANK

Post by mongoII »

Hello Mr. Epstein and welcome of the Silver Screen Oasis.

Although I'm not a big fan of Lee Marvin I just watched him in "Monte Walsh" and thought he gave a very good performance, among others that I have seen, "The Big Heat", "Bad Day at Black Rock", "Not as a Stranger", "The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance", and "Emperor of the North".
Was Steven Spielberg's first choice to play Quint in "Jaws"? What happened?
Who were some of his buddy co-stars and who were not?
Did he have a favorite movie from his long list of films?
Did he really keep the high-heeled shoe that Vivien Leigh beat him with in "Ship of Fools" ?
I better quit for now.
Thank you.
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Re: Q & A for Dwayne Epstein, Author of LEE MARVIN, POINT BLANK

Post by Dwayne Epstein »

mongoII wrote:Hello Mr. Epstein and welcome of the Silver Screen Oasis.

Although I'm not a big fan of Lee Marvin I just watched him in "Monte Walsh" and thought he gave a very good performance, among others that I have seen, "The Big Heat", "Bad Day at Black Rock", "Not as a Stranger", "The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance", and "Emperor of the North".
Was Steven Spielberg's first choice to play Quint in "Jaws"? What happened?
Who were some of his buddy co-stars and who were not?
Did he have a favorite movie from his long list of films?
Did he really keep the high-heeled shoe that Vivien Leigh beat him with in "Ship of Fools" ?
I better quit for now.
Thank you.
Fans are extremely important but I'm just as glad to hear from those who may not be fans of Lee Marvin's work.
I'm glad to hear you liked his performance in Monte Walsh as it's one of my favorites of his as well. If I may, can I suggest you catch both The DIrty Dozen and especially The Professionals if you are on search for some of his better performances? I'd throw in The Iceman Cometh and The Big Red One, as well. Just a thought....

It's been my understanding through several sources that Marvin did indeed turn Spielberg down to play Quint in Jaws. It may seem laughable now in hindsight but Marvin's reason at the time was pretty sound. He felt that the script that he read came up lacking and as avid sport fisherman himself he'd rather make another film if he was going to delve into similar territory. The project he had in mind was based on a book called Tournament and try as he might, he was unable to get any backers for it. After the success of Jaws he joked that making it would have been a cop-out to his fishing buddies but he also stood by his original assessment saying that special effects aside, it's still a rather small film about 3 men in a boat (!)

As to his buddy costars, I can tell you he got along with almost everybody he worked with save for one very specific exception which I'll get to in a minute. The costars he actually became good friends with were not that many as he was a very private man. The one actor he bonded with and was his closest friend by all accounts was Keenan Wynn. The two men hit it off when they met on the VERY strange film Shack Out on 101 and remained the best friends until Wynn's passing. I interviewed both of Wynn's sons and they told me some wonderful tales of their father and Marvin's escapades together! He was also very good friends with Woody Strode, stuntman Tony Epper, former fellow Marine Alvy Moore (TV's Mr. Kimball) and a handful of others. He worked often with Ernest Borgnine, Charles Bronson, Jack Palance and Robert Ryan but never became particularly chummy with any of them. The one actor he absolutely despised, although never said so publicly, was Ronald Reagan. He worked with him on TV in the 50s and later in The Killers and by all accounts, including agent Meyer Mishkin and Killers costar Clu Gulager, Marvin thought Reagan was an untalented, pretentious jerk...their words, not mine. It's not hard to imagine what he thought of him as president.

Marvin's favorite films of his own canon of work depended it seems on the mood he was in at the time. Up until the mid-60s he listed Liberty Valance and The Killers as his favorites, later adding both Hell in the Pacific and Monte Walsh to the list. Other than that, it was a pretty short list.

From all that I've gathered, yes, he kept the shoe Vivien Leigh beat him with in Ship of Fools as a prized memento...along with the blood-stained wallet from his wound on Saipan, his plumber's union card he earned after the war, and the ceremonial Samurai sword given to him as a gift by costar Toshiro Mifune. Oh, and his Oscar.
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Re: Q & A for Dwayne Epstein, Author of LEE MARVIN, POINT BLANK

Post by Rita Hayworth »

Thank You ... Mr. Epstein for your insights of LEE MARVIN into the world of television. I find your answer fascinating and appreciate the candidness into the life of Mr. Marvin. I loved Lee in most movies and I crack up when he did Cat Ballou ... that was a hoot when he did that movie. He is a colorful actor and a Marine too. My Uncle loved Lee Marvin.

My Uncle who passed away two years ago (he was a Marine too) and met Lee once on a training ground for some type of Combat School. Lee was leaving the school (I think it was) and my Uncle just getting in. My Uncle served 15 years in the USMC rising to the rank of First Sergeant. He was in the 5th Marine Division in World War Two.

Anyway, I wanted to share that from you. I just reviewed my Uncle's Memorial Service Bulletin to verify this fact.

Did a quick research of Lee Marvin (From Wikipedia, below)

Marvin left school to join the United States Marine Corps, serving in the 4th Marine Division.[7] He was wounded in action during the WWII Battle of Saipan, in the assault on Mount Tapochau, during which most of his company ("I" Company, 24th Marines, 4th Marine Division) were killed.[8] Marvin's wound (in the buttocks) was from machine gun fire, which severed his sciatic nerve.[9] He was awarded the Purple Heart and was given a medical discharge with the rank of Private First Class in 1945 at Philadelphia.
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Re: Q & A for Dwayne Epstein, Author of LEE MARVIN, POINT BLANK

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Thank you for sharing that personal connection with Lee Marvin, Kingme.

Dwayne, I know that you have spent time interviewing Betty Marvin, and I was wondering how she responded personally to Lee's "Palimony" trial. Also, how did it affect his children?

Thank you!
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Re: Q & A for Dwayne Epstein, Author of LEE MARVIN, POINT BLANK

Post by Dwayne Epstein »

kingme wrote:Thank You ... Mr. Epstein for your insights of LEE MARVIN into the world of television. I find your answer fascinating and appreciate the candidness into the life of Mr. Marvin. I loved Lee in most movies and I crack up when he did Cat Ballou ... that was a hoot when he did that movie. He is a colorful actor and a Marine too. My Uncle loved Lee Marvin.

My Uncle who passed away two years ago (he was a Marine too) and met Lee once on a training ground for some type of Combat School. Lee was leaving the school (I think it was) and my Uncle just getting in. My Uncle served 15 years in the USMC rising to the rank of First Sergeant. He was in the 5th Marine Division in World War Two.

Anyway, I wanted to share that from you. I just reviewed my Uncle's Memorial Service Bulletin to verify this fact.

Did a quick research of Lee Marvin (From Wikipedia, below)

Marvin left school to join the United States Marine Corps, serving in the 4th Marine Division.[7] He was wounded in action during the WWII Battle of Saipan, in the assault on Mount Tapochau, during which most of his company ("I" Company, 24th Marines, 4th Marine Division) were killed.[8] Marvin's wound (in the buttocks) was from machine gun fire, which severed his sciatic nerve.[9] He was awarded the Purple Heart and was given a medical discharge with the rank of Private First Class in 1945 at Philadelphia.
Any man who could rise to the rank of the 1st SGT in the UMSC, such as your uncle, has my respect as it is the most arduous branch of the armed services. Most of what Wikipedia wrote about Marvin's war experience is accurate if not just a little overly general. He was wounded on Saipan but the wound ALMOST severed his sciatic nerve. It may seem petty but truth be told, if his sciatic nerve had been severed, Marvin would not have been able to walk. He also made 2o landings with 'The Fighting 4th' before Saipan which is an amazing number! In my book, I allowed Marvin himself to recount those days in the service from training to combat via letters he wrote home at the time and it really is quite astonishing to hear it in his own words.
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Re: Q & A for Dwayne Epstein, Author of LEE MARVIN, POINT BLANK

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Sue Sue Applegate wrote:Thank you for sharing that personal connection with Lee Marvin, Kingme.

Dwayne, I know that you have spent time interviewing Betty Marvin, and I was wondering how she responded personally to Lee's "Palimony" trial. Also, how did it affect his children?

Thank you!
I can tell you that Betty had absolutely no involvement in the suit as she and Lee had long since broken up by then. She of course followed it on TV as the rest of us did at the time and since she never cared for Michele Triola, and with good reason, she was not entirely surprised by the outcome. As to Lee's children, I've spoken to all four of them, but only his eldest and only son, Christopher, was willing to go on the record. He's feelings toward any of his father's relationships was one of total indifference, as in "Hey, that's between my dad and whomever he's with. I have no opinion about that."

What I find interesting about the suit, personally, is that whenever I ask people about it nowadays, almost every single person will respond that they fully believe he lost the suit and remember it that way. I was amazed by that, especially since he not only won on all counts, but the verdict was totally distorted in the media at the time. The trial judge asked Marvin to pay Triola $104K to learn a trade which he agreed to do. On appeal, his lawyer's got the money back and then some! The entire affair is a full, separate chapter in my book and one most people would be amazed to discover!
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Re: Q & A for Dwayne Epstein, Author of LEE MARVIN, POINT BLANK

Post by Sue Sue Applegate »

Thanks for that wonderful insight, Dwayne.

I was wondering if you had any other personal comments about Woody Strode that might not be related to his relationship to Lee Marvin, and also could you discuss your interviews with Alvy Moore? I think it is so interesting how familiar he was with Lee and his family.
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Re: Q & A for Dwayne Epstein, Author of LEE MARVIN, POINT BLANK

Post by Lzcutter »

Mr. Epstein,

Quick question for you regarding the palimony suit and Michele Triola. Was she close to actor Dick Van Dyke when she was with Lee?
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Re: Q & A for Dwayne Epstein, Author of LEE MARVIN, POINT BLANK

Post by MissGoddess »

One of the aspects sadly missing in many films today in which filmmakers feel it necessary to hold the audience's hand and explain everything as if we were all twelve-year-olds. In Point Blank, you either get it or you don;t and I personally prefer such storytelling techniques.


Personally, I think one could say that about Lee's career. I get it! I get it! Love him.

Thanks for sharing your stories and insights on Lee's work and relationships with Strode and Ford.

Can you tell me how he felt about doing westerns vs. other genres? Did he enjoy them? some very famous cowboy actors hated horses so it wouldn't surprise me to hear he didn't care about them one way or another. I just think he was one of the most arresting villains in westerns. He seemed, as Ford beautifully cast him in The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance, the embodiment of the "wildness" of the west, a violence that could not be caged. Killed, maybe, not caged.

Anything on how he got along with Wayne? They have great chemistry together in their brief scenes in The Comancheros. Like Howard Hawks once said, you needed real stature to stay in a scene with Wayne and Lee had that in spades.

Did you learn anything about how he felt about director Fritz Lang?

I've been exploring more and more vintage TV and have enjoyed bumping into Lee along the way. It was especially amusing and rather touching to see him and Richard Boone, two western bad boys, in "Medic"---playing such nice boys. :D

Thanks for being here.

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