Italian Neo Realistic Films

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LawrenceA
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Re: Italian Neo Realistic Films

Post by LawrenceA »

LostHorizons wrote: December 7th, 2022, 2:47 pm
Allhallowsday wrote: December 7th, 2022, 1:31 pm Italian Neo-Realism is one of my favorites... LA DOLCE VITA 8 1/2 GERMANIA ANNO ZERO OSSESSIONE LA STRADA NIGHTS OF CABIRIA ... all favorites.
Those aren’t neorealism. Neorealism is mostly plotless and has none of the traditional cinematic flourishes like booming scores. It has boring, static cinematography that intentionally feels lame. I think the average camera shot length in L’eclisse was 30 or 40 seconds for example. The camera just lingers on nothing and when it cuts it is to something really inane or pointless.
I read the Wiki article after posting earlier, and according to it, the Italian Neorealism movement lasted roughly 9 years from '43 to '52, with Ossessione considered the first true Neorealist picture, and ending with either Umberto D. in '52 or Journey to Italy in '54.

It doesn't list any of the Fellini pictures as Neorealist, nor the Antonionis. They primarily list Rossellini's War Trilogy, some other De Sica (like Shoeshine and Bicycle Thieves), and Giuseppe De Santis films like Bitter Rice and Rome 11:00.

Later directors were of course inspired by these films, and used some of the aesthetic, like in some of Pasolini's works.
Watching until the end.
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LostHorizons
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Re: Italian Neo Realistic Films

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LawrenceA wrote: December 7th, 2022, 3:35 pm
LostHorizons wrote: December 7th, 2022, 2:47 pm
Allhallowsday wrote: December 7th, 2022, 1:31 pm Italian Neo-Realism is one of my favorites... LA DOLCE VITA 8 1/2 GERMANIA ANNO ZERO OSSESSIONE LA STRADA NIGHTS OF CABIRIA ... all favorites.
Those aren’t neorealism. Neorealism is mostly plotless and has none of the traditional cinematic flourishes like booming scores. It has boring, static cinematography that intentionally feels lame. I think the average camera shot length in L’eclisse was 30 or 40 seconds for example. The camera just lingers on nothing and when it cuts it is to something really inane or pointless.
I read the Wiki article after posting earlier, and according to it, the Italian Neorealism movement lasted roughly 9 years from '43 to '52, with Ossessione considered the first true Neorealist picture, and ending with either Umberto D. in '52 or Journey to Italy in '54.

It doesn't list any of the Fellini pictures as Neorealist, nor the Antonionis. They primarily list Rossellini's War Trilogy, some other De Sica (like Shoeshine and Bicycle Thieves), and Giuseppe De Santis films like Bitter Rice and Rome 11:00.

Later directors were of course inspired by these films, and used some of the aesthetic, like in some of Pasolini's works.
The Criterion supplement “Elements of Landscape” describes Antonioni as “neorealism without the ‘bicycle’” referencing the sentimentality of the film Bicycle Thieves. I forget who that quote is initially attributed to (possibly Antonioni himself) but it means his films are intended as like the reverse of the earlier neorealist films because he gets rid of the sentimentality and focuses on petit bourgeois parts of society (the stockbroker and stock trading in the Roman bank district) as opposed to working class people like in Bicycle Thieves. So he could be seen as a topsy turvy version of De Sica.
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Allhallowsday
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Re: Italian Neo Realistic Films

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I do not entirely agree with you guys, though films like LA DOLCE VITA with professional actors had come a long way from the roots of the movement. But even OSSESSIONE had professional actors. GERMANY YEAR ZERO is most certainly Neo-Realism.
Neo-realism is not pointless. BICYCLE THIEVES I also consider Neo-Realism and it has a point.
And the most "no script" example would be IL VANGELO SECONDO MATTEO... I think. :) And that film also had a point.
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LostHorizons
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Re: Italian Neo Realistic Films

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Allhallowsday wrote: December 7th, 2022, 5:03 pm I do not entirely agree with you guys, though films like LA DOLCE VITA with professional actors had come a long way from the roots of the movement. But even OSSESSIONE had professional actors. GERMANY YEAR ZERO is most certainly Neo-Realism.
Neo-realism is not pointless. BICYCLE THIEVES I also consider Neo-Realism and it has a point.
And the most "no script" example would be IL VANGELO SECONDO MATTEO... I think. :) And that film also had a point.
Well L’eclisse (which isn’t even neorealist according to wiki apparently) is pretty pointless. It ends without resolving anything.
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LostHorizons
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Re: Italian Neo Realistic Films

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Here is a full link to a style blog on Alain Delon:

https://robbreport.com/style/fashion/al ... 84279/amp/

L’eclisse is mentioned by name in it. It is worth a read for a clothing breakdown of the man.
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Allhallowsday
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Re: Italian Neo Realistic Films

Post by Allhallowsday »

LostHorizons wrote: December 7th, 2022, 5:33 pm
Allhallowsday wrote: December 7th, 2022, 5:03 pm I do not entirely agree with you guys, though films like LA DOLCE VITA with professional actors had come a long way from the roots of the movement. But even OSSESSIONE had professional actors. GERMANY YEAR ZERO is most certainly Neo-Realism.
Neo-realism is not pointless. BICYCLE THIEVES I also consider Neo-Realism and it has a point.
And the most "no script" example would be IL VANGELO SECONDO MATTEO... I think. :) And that film also had a point.
Well L’eclisse (which isn’t even neorealist according to wiki apparently) is pretty pointless. It ends without resolving anything.
Sorry, don't understand. I'm just talking films.
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LostHorizons
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Re: Italian Neo Realistic Films

Post by LostHorizons »

Allhallowsday wrote: December 7th, 2022, 5:47 pm
LostHorizons wrote: December 7th, 2022, 5:33 pm
Allhallowsday wrote: December 7th, 2022, 5:03 pm I do not entirely agree with you guys, though films like LA DOLCE VITA with professional actors had come a long way from the roots of the movement. But even OSSESSIONE had professional actors. GERMANY YEAR ZERO is most certainly Neo-Realism.
Neo-realism is not pointless. BICYCLE THIEVES I also consider Neo-Realism and it has a point.
And the most "no script" example would be IL VANGELO SECONDO MATTEO... I think. :) And that film also had a point.
Well L’eclisse (which isn’t even neorealist according to wiki apparently) is pretty pointless. It ends without resolving anything.
Sorry, don't understand. I'm just talking films.
I am talking about the specific film from Antonioni called “Eclipse.” I am talking only of that film.
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LawrenceA
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Re: Italian Neo Realistic Films

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Apologies if my posts offended anyone. It wasn't intended, nor was I attempting to school anyone, except for myself, as I wondered if my understanding of what the classification means was incorrect.
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Allhallowsday
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Re: Italian Neo Realistic Films

Post by Allhallowsday »

LawrenceA wrote: December 7th, 2022, 2:04 pm
Allhallowsday wrote: December 7th, 2022, 1:31 pm Italian Neo-Realism is one of my favorites... LA DOLCE VITA 8 1/2 GERMANIA ANNO ZERO OSSESSIONE LA STRADA NIGHTS OF CABIRIA ... all favorites.
Maybe I have a misunderstanding of Neo-realism, but I wouldn't consider La Dolce Vita or 8 1/2 as such. Those early Rossellini flicks, and Visconti's Ossessione, yeah. But I don't know about the Fellini flicks.
You're right, but I think content is an important part of Neo-Realism as well as the look. Each of the debatable films I cited have an element of danger, fear or sorrow, all informed by the Neo-Realists: the unexpected happens.
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LostHorizons
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Re: Italian Neo Realistic Films

Post by LostHorizons »

LawrenceA wrote: December 7th, 2022, 6:06 pm Apologies if my posts offended anyone. It wasn't intended, nor was I attempting to school anyone, except for myself, as I wondered if my understanding of what the classification means was incorrect.
I wasn’t angry or offended if that is what you mean, nor do I doubt the veracity of your quote from Wikipedia. I actually found the quote to be helpful because it narrows down a specific timeline for neorealism. My interjection of the Antonioni quote from the Criterion video (“Neorealism without a bicycle”) was to bring back around the relation of Antonioni and his films to the original movement even if he is not formally recognized as a member. Either way, it doesn’t really matter much as this thread was dead for over a decade before I posted so it’s not like the now long gone original posters are going to care.
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LostHorizons
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Re: Italian Neo Realistic Films

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Antonioni really comes across as full of it from his interviews. Bergman was correct to call him “amateur.” I was watching an interview on Zabriskie Point and Antoinioni literally says “America is a land of contrasts.” That was funny to me because on the Simpsons, Bart said that exact line when giving a speech on some inane topic he didn’t study.
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Re: Italian Neo Realistic Films

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LostHorizons wrote: December 21st, 2022, 11:46 pm Antonioni really comes across as full of it from his interviews. Bergman was correct to call him “amateur.” I was watching an interview on Zabriskie Point and Antoinioni literally says “America is a land of contrasts.” That was funny to me because on the Simpsons, Bart said that exact line when giving a speech on some inane topic he didn’t study.
Did Bergman really say that of Rossellini? Wow! Both were virtually the same age though R died in 1977 while B died in 2007. I wonder if B said that before or after R died. I never thought of R as an "amateur." Others I gather would not think so either. Just a nasty remark, yet from a biggie.
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LostHorizons
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Re: Italian Neo Realistic Films

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laffite wrote: December 22nd, 2022, 2:20 am
LostHorizons wrote: December 21st, 2022, 11:46 pm Antonioni really comes across as full of it from his interviews. Bergman was correct to call him “amateur.” I was watching an interview on Zabriskie Point and Antoinioni literally says “America is a land of contrasts.” That was funny to me because on the Simpsons, Bart said that exact line when giving a speech on some inane topic he didn’t study.
Did Bergman really say that of Rossellini? Wow! Both were virtually the same age though R died in 1977 while B died in 2007. I wonder if B said that before or after R died. I never thought of R as an "amateur." Others I gather would not think so either. Just a nasty remark, yet from a biggie.
He said it of Michelangelo Antonioni not Rossellini.

https://www.criterion.com/current/posts ... -and-vitti

>Ingmar Bergman once told an interviewer that he considered Antonioni—along with Carl Dreyer—an amateur and Monica Vitti a talented but technically insecure performer. The truth is that Bergman is a master of conventional film technique, the way a good professional does it, by the rules, and that Antonioni—like Dreyer—is the kind of artist who goes his own way, in disregard of the rules, and achieves an unconventional mastery.
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Re: Italian Neo Realistic Films

Post by laffite »

LostHorizons wrote: December 22nd, 2022, 2:49 am
laffite wrote: December 22nd, 2022, 2:20 am
LostHorizons wrote: December 21st, 2022, 11:46 pm Antonioni really comes across as full of it from his interviews. Bergman was correct to call him “amateur.” I was watching an interview on Zabriskie Point and Antoinioni literally says “America is a land of contrasts.” That was funny to me because on the Simpsons, Bart said that exact line when giving a speech on some inane topic he didn’t study.
Did Bergman really say that of Rossellini? Wow! Both were virtually the same age though R died in 1977 while B died in 2007. I wonder if B said that before or after R died. I never thought of R as an "amateur." Others I gather would not think so either. Just a nasty remark, yet from a biggie.
He said it of Michelangelo Antonioni not Rossellini.

https://www.criterion.com/current/posts ... -and-vitti

>Ingmar Bergman once told an interviewer that he considered Antonioni—along with Carl Dreyer—an amateur and Monica Vitti a talented but technically insecure performer. The truth is that Bergman is a master of conventional film technique, the way a good professional does it, by the rules, and that Antonioni—like Dreyer—is the kind of artist who goes his own way, in disregard of the rules, and achieves an unconventional mastery.
My error though I was thinking Antonioni. When I checked the dates however I looked up Rossellini instead of A which was a further error. I had a paragraph that I deleted in which I mentioned Antonioni's Le amiche a movie I liked. So I must have been thinking of Antonioni. I know I'm waffling a bit but the truth is, I don't know Rossellini and I don't know he got in my head..

Thanks for the link. I read the complete article. I wonder if Bergman was too hard on him. Is the reason he had that opinion because he observed a style quite different than his own. Probably not completely but it could still be a factor. Both B and A died the same year, 2007, with B being five years older. Did A have a public reaction to that, I wonder. It was a nasty thing to say.

I haven't seen much of Vitti. L'Avventura was a mess and I don't even remember her in that (invoking the usual excuse, i.e., it's been a while since viewing). But I like L'Eclisse a lot and Vitti seemed quite assured. "Technically insecure" suggests simply not enough training. or having the training but learning only so much, which would probably irritate Bergman, who as I now know was more conventional, indicating appreciating the value of a well-trained actor. He apparently thought that A was also technically insecure since he strayed from accepted norms. Hence, an amateur. Amateur doesn't seem right word. A was certainly better than that.
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laffite
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Re: Italian Neo Realistic Films

Post by laffite »

LostHorizons wrote: December 7th, 2022, 2:47 pm
Allhallowsday wrote: December 7th, 2022, 1:31 pm Italian Neo-Realism is one of my favorites... LA DOLCE VITA 8 1/2 GERMANIA ANNO ZERO OSSESSIONE LA STRADA NIGHTS OF CABIRIA ... all favorites.
Those aren’t neorealism. Neorealism is mostly plotless and has none of the traditional cinematic flourishes like booming scores. It has boring, static cinematography that intentionally feels lame. I think the average camera shot length in L’eclisse was 30 or 40 seconds for example. The camera just lingers on nothing and when it cuts it is to something really inane or pointless.
Also the very obvious feature of taking their cameras to the streets of the city, which I presume is the realism part of Neo Realism. "Seemingly inane or pointless" I might say instead. Maybe there is madness in the method but perhaps some quixotic or unconventional notion lying in wait. The Bicycle Thieves had a plot, or at least a story line. ---laffite, the Devil's Advocate.
Sabine Azema in Sunday in the Country
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