I Just Watched...

Discussion of programming on TCM.
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HoldenIsHere
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Re: I Just Watched...

Post by HoldenIsHere »

Lorna wrote: December 31st, 2023, 4:29 pm I just remember that for an extended period of time “the Shawshank redemption” was one of ***the three highest rated films on IMDb*** and that always puts their whole “member ratings” system into perspective for me.

(Now, SMOKEY AND THE BANDIT I could see.)
Amen to that!

THE SHAWSHANK REDEMPTION - meh

SMOKEY AND THE BANDIT - opposite of meh (whatever the word or phrase may be)


I actually only saw SMOKEY AND TH BANDIT in the last year or so.
speedacer5 (the creator of this thread) always spoke highly of the movie, but I resisted because I'm not too keen on Burt Reynolds or Jackie Gleason. I'm sure glad that I trusted speedracer and gave it a chance.
What a fun movie!
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jamesjazzguitar
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Re: I Just Watched...

Post by jamesjazzguitar »

txfilmfan wrote: December 31st, 2023, 4:47 pm
Lorna wrote: December 31st, 2023, 4:29 pm I just remember that for an extended period of time “the Shawshank redemption” was one of ***the three highest rated films on IMDb*** and that always puts their whole “member ratings” system into perspective for me.

(Now, SMOKEY AND THE BANDIT I could see.)
Top 10 on IMDb at this moment:

1) The Shawshank Redemption
2) The Godfather
3) The Dark Knight
4) The Godfather Part II
5) 12 Angry Men (1957 film)
6) Schindler's List
7) The LotR: The Return of the King
8) Pulp Fiction
9) The LotR: The Fellowship of the Ring
10) The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

I seem to recall back when the LotR films were coming out at the same time as all the new Lucasfilm stuff that the respective fanboy delegations were duking it out as to which films were better. I would have thought the overlap between the two groups would be massive, but perhaps not...
How is the IMDB raking done? By users, by a select group of individuals, or based on rentals?
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txfilmfan
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Re: I Just Watched...

Post by txfilmfan »

jamesjazzguitar wrote: December 31st, 2023, 5:21 pm
txfilmfan wrote: December 31st, 2023, 4:47 pm
Lorna wrote: December 31st, 2023, 4:29 pm I just remember that for an extended period of time “the Shawshank redemption” was one of ***the three highest rated films on IMDb*** and that always puts their whole “member ratings” system into perspective for me.

(Now, SMOKEY AND THE BANDIT I could see.)
Top 10 on IMDb at this moment:

1) The Shawshank Redemption
2) The Godfather
3) The Dark Knight
4) The Godfather Part II
5) 12 Angry Men (1957 film)
6) Schindler's List
7) The LotR: The Return of the King
8) Pulp Fiction
9) The LotR: The Fellowship of the Ring
10) The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

I seem to recall back when the LotR films were coming out at the same time as all the new Lucasfilm stuff that the respective fanboy delegations were duking it out as to which films were better. I would have thought the overlap between the two groups would be massive, but perhaps not...
How is the IMDB raking done? By users, by a select group of individuals, or based on rentals?
By users. You rate a title from 1 to 10, and they average the individual scores. A title's score isn't just the mean (average) though. They have some sort of weighted average algorithm to prevent unusual rating patterns from contaminating their database. They don't disclose the algorithm.

All the info on IMDb ratings can be found on this FAQ page:

https://help.imdb.com/article/imdb/trac ... TFYYP6TWAV

Edit: The Top 250 ranking is determined by taking only "regular voters" inputs from the voting database. For example, I've only submitted a handful of ratings since I've been a member (over 15 years). The Top 250 page tells me I've rated 24/250, or 10% of the Top 250. I doubt that makes me a "regular" voter. Also, a title has to receive at least 25,000 ratings before it can go on their Top 250 list.
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Lorna
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Re: I Just Watched...

Post by Lorna »

txfilmfan wrote: December 31st, 2023, 4:47 pm

Top 10 on IMDb at this moment:

1) The Shawshank Redemption

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Lorna
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Re: I Just Watched...

Post by Lorna »

I mean, i will say this for THE SHAWSHANK REDEMPTION- I saw it a year or so after it came out (1994) and ALL THESE MANY YEARS LATER I can still recall a lot about it- good and bad (the JAMES WHITMORE subplot is really effective, whereas I recall the character of THE WARDEN is handled in much the same fashion as if it were a WB FILM of the 1930's**- he practically twirls his mustache.) there is also a scene where the hero is raped by three of his fellow inmates (male)- and while this is a fact of prison life, I recall thinking it was handled in a way that was...perhaps a little too "sensational"? also also, I recall feeling distinctly that while he is excellent in his part, there is something about MORGAN FREEMAN'S role that ventures into "magical minority" territory (not through any doing of his). '

also I thought the ending was ****ing ridiculous.

**did i accidentally steal this reference from INSIDE OSCAR 2?
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Re: I Just Watched...

Post by CinemaInternational »

Lorna wrote: December 31st, 2023, 4:25 pm I see where you’re coming from with regard to films of the 21st-century, not being up to par, all I can offer you is that while I have likewise been *so* deeply turned off and repelled by the modern films that I have disliked, there have been some films I’ve seen made in the last 20 years that I did like
And would even call excelllent, among them GET OUT, GOD’S OWN COUNTRY, DJANGO UNCHAINED, DAWN IF THE DEAD, THE KINGS SPEECH and some others.

But yes, you have to be careful because the bad films are so bad that they can give you trust issues when taking viewing risks
A few notes before I address your post on 21st century films...

Although you didn't get far, I'm glad you liked Black Cauldron all over again. I spoke of it a few days ago here, how much it meant to me. It's terribly underrated.

As for Howl's Moving Castle, before going in, I knew the story was odd, because years ago, someone had donated this comic book like publication which showed the whole unfolding of the story, and even there, it seemed weird and slightly incoherent..... I think it plays better unfolding on the screen, but maybe I was a bit too kind when I saw it a few years ago.....

It's not the only Japanese animated film with an unusual plot on the IMDb list. 2016's Your Name, which is in that top 100, starts as some sort of Freaky Friday clone with a girl and boy mysteriously switching places repeatedly, before revealing itself to be a youth romance/drama/sci-fi/ race-against-time/disaster movie. Seriously. It actually worked because the underlying emotions were so strong, but it is another film not to go into with the intention of expecting clarity or credibility.

Re, your earlier post on the Batman animated film, thank you for deconstructing it. I kind of thought that it sounded as though it couldn't live up to the hype, which is still strong for it. There actually was a (frustrating) book ranking TV series a few years ago which said that the animated TV series was one of the 100 best American series of all time. Sorry to hear that Dana Delany's vocal performance wasn't up to pitch; I have this utmost respect for her due to her brilliant, masterclass performance she gave on China Beach, my all-time favorite TV series. I only wish her subsequent career had been better, although it was great to see her on Desperate Housewives.

-----
But now the topic has to turn to the 21st century for films. Part of my aversion is due to purely personal issues: the years of this century have been hard, and I have a lot of past regrets dating back to 2007. (How I wish I could have been better than I was, to not have made some of those big mistakes).

The biggest personal reason is because I spent years with people I met on IMDb that mostly discussed new releases/Oscar films. When the boards closed there, I followed them to a Facebook group. It all started out so well. But my jitters stemming from an earlier internet trouble had its impact, as did my unyielding criticism of some "popular, praised" films combined with some degree of social naivete. And one day, feeling worn down from being dogpiled on several times and being repulsed by the sounds of the latest movie of the moment, I lost my cool, and tried to fight back. They banned me from the group for over two years before letting me back in. During the time of the ban, only about 15 of the 150+people even acknowledged my existence. I found I was the butt of jokes, that people I deeply cared for, people I had poured my soul out to, didn't even care, that some directly publicly scorned me and publicly said bad things about me in my absence. They mocked my love of older films. I did a lot for them in that four year period before being banned; I'm kind of back there now, but it will never be the same as it was before. I am so wary of being hurt, and some of them still don't give me the time of day. How I was treated there really made me reluctant to do anymore than I absolutely had to with post-2000 films. Almost every time I watch one from the 21st century (save maybe for some of those titles from 2000-2003), especially films from the 2010s, I become reminded of the past. And it still hurts.

But the other half of it comes from the films themselves. I keep track of the films I have seen, and about 13% come from 2000 onward. To my surprise, I really liked a good 45% of them. But the other 55% ranges from the bland to the inane, from the mediocre to the reprehensible. And what makes an impact also is how seriously some of the bad films were taken. Some were given some of the best press in the world, Oscars, and a big popular response. And they were still lacking. Every Oscar year brings at least one big clinker up for Best Picture. Netflix rarely produces a good film, the current indie scene is dominated by the sanctimonious, narcissistic duo of studios A24 and Neon (to be fair they have financed some good films, but also a whole lot of schlock), and the majors are lost to blockbusters. And I have so little patience for the blockbusters turned out by the score now. The films that are aimed at adults the past few years (2020- now) have the subtlety of a sledgehammer; even Stanley Kramer would say they tried too hard. Plus there are some that are plainly morally repugnant. And I am still furious that 20th Century Fox is now referred to as the meaningless 20th Century Studios....

To be fair, there are reasons to keep watching. Most of the films have been downbeat, but they come with some exceptional performances (like Glenn Close in The Wife or Charlotte Rampling in 45 Years). And every now and then, there is a film left for dead that is actually marvelous (A Quiet Passion, Film Stars Don't Die in Liverpool, Stan and Ollie, Motherless Brooklyn, Three Thousand Years of Longing). It's enough to make things a bit easier and more palatable. But my heart still belongs with the 20th century.
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CinemaInternational
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Re: I Just Watched...

Post by CinemaInternational »

jamesjazzguitar wrote: December 31st, 2023, 5:21 pm
txfilmfan wrote: December 31st, 2023, 4:47 pm
Lorna wrote: December 31st, 2023, 4:29 pm I just remember that for an extended period of time “the Shawshank redemption” was one of ***the three highest rated films on IMDb*** and that always puts their whole “member ratings” system into perspective for me.

(Now, SMOKEY AND THE BANDIT I could see.)
Top 10 on IMDb at this moment:

1) The Shawshank Redemption
2) The Godfather
3) The Dark Knight
4) The Godfather Part II
5) 12 Angry Men (1957 film)
6) Schindler's List
7) The LotR: The Return of the King
8) Pulp Fiction
9) The LotR: The Fellowship of the Ring
10) The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

I seem to recall back when the LotR films were coming out at the same time as all the new Lucasfilm stuff that the respective fanboy delegations were duking it out as to which films were better. I would have thought the overlap between the two groups would be massive, but perhaps not...
How is the IMDB raking done? By users, by a select group of individuals, or based on rentals?
It's based on the average vote that their users rated a film, but it is definitely influenced by pressure campaigns. When some hyped films come out, some "fanboys" urge their friends to vote the hyped film a 10, while handing another film a 1, so it could get on the list. So the results are skewed.....
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jamesjazzguitar
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Re: I Just Watched...

Post by jamesjazzguitar »

CinemaInternational wrote: January 1st, 2024, 3:25 pm
jamesjazzguitar wrote: December 31st, 2023, 5:21 pm
txfilmfan wrote: December 31st, 2023, 4:47 pm

Top 10 on IMDb at this moment:

1) The Shawshank Redemption
2) The Godfather
3) The Dark Knight
4) The Godfather Part II
5) 12 Angry Men (1957 film)
6) Schindler's List
7) The LotR: The Return of the King
8) Pulp Fiction
9) The LotR: The Fellowship of the Ring
10) The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

I seem to recall back when the LotR films were coming out at the same time as all the new Lucasfilm stuff that the respective fanboy delegations were duking it out as to which films were better. I would have thought the overlap between the two groups would be massive, but perhaps not...
How is the IMDB raking done? By users, by a select group of individuals, or based on rentals?
It's based on the average vote that their users rated a film, but it is definitely influenced by pressure campaigns. When some hyped films come out, some "fanboys" urge their friends to vote the hyped film a 10, while handing another film a 1, so it could get on the list. So the results are skewed.....
Thanks for the info (as well as Txfilmfan). I admit this ranking makes no sense to me. E.g. only two studio-era films, and the one that ranks in the top 10 is 12 Angry men. (instead of say Casablanca, Citizen Kane, Gone With the Wind, Best Years of Our Lives or other films).

I can somewhat understand the Eastwood film, but if a 60s film, I think more people would select Bonnie and Clyde instead of the Good, Bad, Ugly.

Lord of the Rings films and the two Godfathers make sense to me (i.e. I wouldn't select them, but I can understand why others would).
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CinemaInternational
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Re: I Just Watched...

Post by CinemaInternational »

Lorna wrote: January 1st, 2024, 12:06 pm I mean, i will say this for THE SHAWSHANK REDEMPTION- I saw it a year or so after it came out (1994) and ALL THESE MANY YEARS LATER I can still recall a lot about it- good and bad (the JAMES WHITMORE subplot is really effective, whereas I recall the character of THE WARDEN is handled in much the same fashion as if it were a WB FILM of the 1930's**- he practically twirls his mustache.) there is also a scene where the hero is raped by three of his fellow inmates (male)- and while this is a fact of prison life, I recall thinking it was handled in a way that was...perhaps a little too "sensational"? also also, I recall feeling distinctly that while he is excellent in his part, there is something about MORGAN FREEMAN'S role that ventures into "magical minority" territory (not through any doing of his). '

also I thought the ending was ****ing ridiculous.

**did i accidentally steal this reference from INSIDE OSCAR 2?
I think you did borrow the phrasing from Inside Oscar, but that's OK....

I only saw Shawshank once (in fact, much like Pauline Kael, many films I have only seen once). I remember it being good, with fine work from Freeman, Whitmore, and Tim Robbins, but it's not best movie of all time material. It's not even the best film of 1994, which was definitely not a favorite year of mine, so Shawshank would still be top 20 for the year...

I am kind of curious as to how it got to the top, given that it was a box office flop in the theatres. Was it all word of mouth and video rentals that caused it to go so high?.

For the record, personal top 30 of 1994 (full disclosure, I know I liked a film you despised.... And I apologize in advance).... And no, I didn't much warm to Forrest Gump, Pulp Fiction, or The Lion King...


1 Quiz Show
2 The Browning Version
3 That's Entertainment! III
4 Widows' Peak
5 Ed Wood
6 Little Women
7 Crooklyn
8 Second Best
9 I'll Do Anything
10 Immortal Beloved
11 Corrina, Corrina
12 Four Weddings and a Funeral
13 Don Juan DeMarco
14 Serial Mom
15 Tom and Viv
16 It Could Happen to You
17 Guarding Tess
18 Pret-a-Porter
19 The Shawshank Redemption
20 Black Beauty
21 The Ref
22 Vanya on 42nd Street
23 Three Colors: Red
24 Nobody's Fool
25 The Hudsucker Proxy
26 The Adventures of Priscilla, Queen of the Desert
27 The Swan Princess
28 The Paper
29 Love Affair
30 Death and the Maiden
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CinemaInternational
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Re: I Just Watched...

Post by CinemaInternational »

jamesjazzguitar wrote: January 1st, 2024, 3:39 pm
CinemaInternational wrote: January 1st, 2024, 3:25 pm
jamesjazzguitar wrote: December 31st, 2023, 5:21 pm

How is the IMDB raking done? By users, by a select group of individuals, or based on rentals?
It's based on the average vote that their users rated a film, but it is definitely influenced by pressure campaigns. When some hyped films come out, some "fanboys" urge their friends to vote the hyped film a 10, while handing another film a 1, so it could get on the list. So the results are skewed.....
Thanks for the info (as well as Txfilmfan). I admit this ranking makes no sense to me. E.g. only two studio-era films, and the one that ranks in the top 10 is 12 Angry men. (instead of say Casablanca, Citizen Kane, Gone With the Wind, Best Years of Our Lives or other films).

I can somewhat understand the Eastwood film, but if a 60s film, I think more people would select Bonnie and Clyde instead of the Good, Bad, Ugly.

Lord of the Rings films and the two Godfathers make sense to me (i.e. I wouldn't select them, but I can understand why others would).
None of it makes much sense. What is true is that classic era titles are often an unexplored territory for younger viewers, and they are often neglected , sadly. They should be given more credit.

Pre-1970 Hollywood films (three British films: Third Man, Bridge on the River Kwai, and Lawrence of Arabia also make the list, as do a few foreign language films, plus three Sergio Leone titles made in Italy, but filmed in English) on the list are....
The Kid (132)
Sherlock Jr. (201)
The Gold Rush (188)
The General (193)
City Lights (53)
It Happened One Night (245)
Modern Times (48)
The Wizard of Oz (229)
Mr. Smith Goes to Washington (204)
Gone with the Wind (161)
The Grapes of Wrath (237)
Rebecca (241)
The Great Dictator (66)
Citizen Kane (100)
To Be or Not to Be (232)
Casablanca (46)
Double Indemnity (104)
The Best Years of Our Lives (223)
It's a Wonderful Life (20)
The Treasure of the Sierra Madre (148)
Sunset Boulevard (60)
All About Eve (135)
Singin in the Rain (87)
Dial M for Murder (160)
On the Waterfront (192)
Rear Window (50)
12 Angry Men (5)
Paths of Glory (61)
Witness for the Prosecution (65)
Vertigo (103)
Some Like It Hot (129)
North by Northwest (102)
Ben-Hur (185)
The Apartment (99)
Psycho (35)
Judgment at Nuremberg (136)
To Kill a Mockingbird (112)
The Great Escape (153)
Dr. Strangelove (72)
The Sound of Music (239)
Cool Hand Luke (242)
2001: A Space Odyssey (95)
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txfilmfan
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Re: I Just Watched...

Post by txfilmfan »

The Blue Caftan (2022), a Moroccan Arabic-language film, released in most parts of the world in 2023. It's available in the US on The Criterion Channel.

A well-crafted comedy/drama about a master caftan maker, who hand sews intricately embroidered caftans. He runs his business, inherited from his father, with his wife, who seems to be the one running the show. Complications, large and small, arise when they hire a young apprentice to help with the business, while their business and personal lives begin to intertwine.

This is a script which could only be done as a film; there are no extensive monologues, no deep sharing of feelings verbally, but you still know exactly what each of the three are going through during the course of the film.

A somewhat brave film to make, given the subject matter and source country, it has been officially submitted as Morocco's film for the 2023 Best International Feature Film Oscar.
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Swithin
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Re: I Just Watched...

Post by Swithin »

A Christmas Carol (2019) BBC miniseries (3 episodes)

This is a very odd adaptation of the Dickens classic. It opens with a boy urinating on a tombstone. As the camera pans down on the stone, we see that it is Jacob Marley's grave. The camera pans farther down, right into the coffin. Marley, awakened by the urine dripping on his face, takes the coins from his eyes and shouts: "Can't you see it says rest in peace? I'm supposed to be resting in peace!" But now that he's awake, he is thrust out of his grave into a wilderness, where he ultimately meets a spirit. There is a lot of Marley in this version of the story.

Next, we meet Scrooge. He's younger than we usually see him, perhaps 50-ish, well played by Guy Pearce. He's philosophical and introspective. He's damaged goods: we see that immediately. He does seem to allow more communication with Bob Cratchit.

The spirits come. The Spirit of Christmas Past gets most of the screen time. At one point, he morphs into Scrooge's father, a nasty, stingy old b****** who is prone to bouts of violence. (So, we're getting really Freudian here.). Then the spirit morphs into Ali Baba, who arrives with a camel. He leads Scrooge to his school. As we all know from every version of the story, Scrooge has to stay behind at school during the holidays. But this version gives us a different take as to the reason. Scrooge's cheap father doesn't want to pay school fees, so he pimps young Ebenezer to the school master, who claims sexual favors from the boy! (So we're getting plenty of reasons as to why Scrooge grows up so nasty.)

In addition to money lending, Scrooge and Marley are asset strippers. Their economies cause a fire at a mill, and, even more tragically, the collapse of a mine in Wales. Both of those tragedies, which take place on Christmas, cause many deaths. We later learn that the boy urinating on the gravestone is a Welsh boy who lost his father and two brothers in the mine collapse, so every Christmas he travels down to London to pee on Marley's -- and later Scrooge's -- grave.

One morning, early, Mrs. Bob Cratchit visits Scrooge, begging for money so that her son, Tiny Tim, can have a life-saving operation. Scrooge tells her to come to his house, the implication being that he wants to have sex with her. When the desperate woman arrives, and begins to disrobe, Scrooge stops her. He doesn't really want to have sex with her, he simply wants to demonstrate that money can buy anything.

The final episode short changes the story. It turns out that Mrs. Cratchit summoned the spirits. That doesn't work, and the whole mildly interesting adaptation falls apart. Nice try, though. Scrooge eschews redemption at the end, because, in his contrition, he feels he just doesn't deserve it.

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Re: I Just Watched...

Post by Allhallowsday »

Swithin wrote: January 1st, 2024, 7:41 pm A Christmas Carol (2019) BBC miniseries (3 episodes)

This is a very odd adaptation of the Dickens classic. ...
I first saw this I guess the year it was new, and it was around one station this year numerous times. A deeply cynical interpretation, chock full of sleaze, I found it loathsome. Creepy Christmas I can dig, but crappy xmas...? A no thanks real downer.
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Re: I Just Watched...

Post by TikiSoo »

Allhallowsday wrote: January 1st, 2024, 10:59 pm A deeply cynical interpretation, chock full of sleaze, I found it loathsome. Creepy Christmas I can dig, but crappy xmas...? A no thanks real downer.
Thanks for saying it, it's hard to "like" a post talking about such sleaze.

Modern movies seem to have the attitude that sordid details will attract & titillate an audience, maybe as a distraction from bad writing?
Really, the original story was written perfectly - the fleshing out of Scrooge's charactor through uncharitable stinginess, inability to empathize & aloneness was plenty.

Adding "sexual favors" to Scrooge's story reminds me of adding masturbation sound effects to the voyeurism scene in PSYCHO '98. Unnecessary & limiting.
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Swithin
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Re: I Just Watched...

Post by Swithin »

TikiSoo wrote: January 2nd, 2024, 6:39 am
Allhallowsday wrote: January 1st, 2024, 10:59 pm A deeply cynical interpretation, chock full of sleaze, I found it loathsome. Creepy Christmas I can dig, but crappy xmas...? A no thanks real downer.
Thanks for saying it, it's hard to "like" a post talking about such sleaze.

Modern movies seem to have the attitude that sordid details will attract & titillate an audience, maybe as a distraction from bad writing?
Really, the original story was written perfectly - the fleshing out of Scrooge's charactor through uncharitable stinginess, inability to empathize & aloneness was plenty.

Adding "sexual favors" to Scrooge's story reminds me of adding masturbation sound effects to the voyeurism scene in PSYCHO '98. Unnecessary & limiting.
Although not entirely successful, I did find the adaptation effective in parts. The film adaptations we love -- 1938 and 1951 -- changed many of the details of the story. The BBC's 2019 miniseries takes many more shocking liberties, some of which simply do not work, though some do. It's worth noting that the creators were involved in Peaky Blinders and Taboo.

The UK reviews were generally good. Here's a quote from a five-star review in The Guardian, with an excerpt from the review:

https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radi ... -our-times

"Towards the end of the first episode, it is clear that there are deaths on Marley and Scrooge’s conscience, from a fire in one of their factories – the resonances with Grenfell surely deliberate – but in their other outposts, too, across the globe, all caused by their relentless attempts to keep costs down and profits up. “We vandalised the world for this,” says Marley, gesturing at Scrooge’s towering house, having found his way from purgatory. The system, says this rich, clever, funny and courageous adaptation, implicates us all. It’s not the kind we’re used to, but it’s as fine a distillation of the wider Christmas message – and the wider concerns that animated Dickens in his weightier tales – as you could hope to see."

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