To Dream of Dogs

[JackFavell]

No, I know you aren't advocating out and out retaliation, T, but I do understand where you are coming from.

[CineMaven]

Whew! Compromise...a hard thing. I want to travel on a two - way street with the one I love.

"Marriage in the Movies" -------------> http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/10/books ... .html?_r=1&

Far afield from the talk of canines. But wanted to get it in before the next cute doggie story.

[JackFavell]

Marriage movies, unlike romances, must be grounded in reality — people rarely burst into song when discussing who takes the kids to school

I would pay good money for that movie to be made. I see it as the Hallelujah, I'm a Bum of marital movies.

[CineMaven]

[charliechaplinfan]

Wendy I think we've come to the same conclusions where our husbands are concerned. Nobody ever told me was that a good marriage/partnership is dependant on one person willing to back down for the sake of peace. Perhaps in the past when women didn't have rights and were their husbands chattels it was obvious who had to do the compromising or biting of tongues. We grew up believing we were equal, even my Mum has bowed to my Dad's wishes on everything as we were growing up (although she's rebelling now but that's another story) that was the way she saw things, I don't think there was any effort there, it was the way she wanted it. For me though I had to learn how to live with Chris rather than the other way around. He's intractable, stubborn, can be quick to anger at times and never ever takes criticism very well and he's certainly not going to change even for the sake of peace. There is an awful lot there that is good or else I wouldn't have stayed but like you with your plants, it does no good to confront them head on we've got to be cleverer about it. It takes a lot of learning though, a lot of tongue biting, a lot of silent fuming. He of course says what he thinks all the time, if he peers over my shoulder with a withering comment again whilst I'm cooking he's going to get slapped with a spatula. Of course I cook 90% of the meals but he is the person who knows more (story of our life) actually I've scored a little victory as the kids have told him that they much prefer my cooking. Well perhaps he shouldn't just make a dish from the top of his head throwing a lot of different ingredients in with no fixed plan but I say nothing. I guess the gist of this is how frustrating they are but if we play the clever game and pick our moments it works better for everyone. I only hope that it's easier for our girls.

[JackFavell]

I totally agree, Alison. I grew up right as the feminist movement was reaching it's peak, and I really believed in it. I thought we had gotten past all that stuff. I dreamed of a mate who would take turns, be very sensitive, but still be manly and strong enough for me to lean my head on his shoulder occasionally.

But you see, most men didn't read all that stuff or have moms that believed in it. Then I married a German boy (old world) who's mom relied on him totally, she calls herself a 'stupid woman' occasionally. He was raised (or should that be reared) as a little prince among men, to take care of her, and be her strength. Nothing he did was ever reprimanded, because his mother was always going to flatter him so he would help her. He basically became man of the house at 13, and so who am I to come along and challenge his authority? His mom once told me that Alice didn't like dolls because I was a feminist. It was ridiculous! And he still has nothing left to give to me, because his mom is still needy.

He positively can't change after all this time, and I had a lot of trouble myself - I'd lived on my own already for so long, and been through another marriage and divorce before Andrew came along. Strangely enough, I got along with my ex a little better in the everyday stuff than I do with Andrew, but Andrew and I are much closer, and have values that are far more similar. The same traits that drive me nuts in Andrew make me know he cares and make him a good husband. I know he really loves me and would never leave me. He's very straight up, if you know what I mean. What you see is what you get, no lying, no cheating. He wouldn't have married me if he hadn't been sure. I told him when we married to take a couple weeks and decide if he really wanted it. He took every single last day of that two weeks! Of course it drove me CRAZY, but he took it seriously when I said it.

I am independent, faaaaaaaaar more so than his mother, and he doesn't really understand that. It's hard to defer to anyone, but I think that there is always one person who takes the lead in a relationship. I don't really WANT to be in a relationship with a man who I've got to lead around by the nose (like my ex). I've found that speaking up, though, generally puts Andrew's back up... because his mother never told him what to do, he's unable to see a suggestion as only that, it's an argument to him, or an insult or "you're YELLING at me!" and he thinks I think he's stupid. Men just do things on their own, while we tend to want to get input.

I hate that.

[charliechaplinfan]

There are so many similarities between our husbands and experiences Wendy. Chris has no patience with my illness unless I'm fainting with it or it's really obvious. He doesn't want to know about it or how it effects me, so I try not to talk about it but it's so difficult because if you don't talk about these things they drive you inside of yourself and you become insular and withdrawn. I need to engage with someone sometimes about how I am but my Mum is very self concerned and Chris lacks any emotional sympathy to really do me any good. But he is straight up, what you see is what you get kind of man and he won't leave me because I'm a bit broken down these days. He's stable, we bicker, a lot which Libby calls arguing, that ain't arguing, when we do argue it can be very emotional. Chris has been brought up in a home that had quite a lot of quick tempers and verbal cruelty in it, he's never got it out of his system. What he says can be so wounding sometimes and he's been particularly insensitive with something he said recently that hurt me really badly but he didn't mean it. Then why say it? Why hurt me when he knows what you are doing but he can't stop himself. So I have to let things go over my head for the most part. When we do row, he usuall goes too far, I end up in tears and then when he's calmed down he apologises. A marriage isn't a straight path that's for sure and it has nothing to do with women's rights, it might have come to the workplace but it's only partly filtered through to my marriage. Maybe when our girls are older the men they marry will have the expereince of seeing women and men in work and won't have grown up with the Mum at home looking after house and perhaps their relationship will be more balanaced for this. Or perhaps it really is 'Man are from Mars, Women are from Venus' thing. One thing is for sure, I'll try my best to be on hand with gentle advice for both my kids.

[JackFavell]

Yes, Alice is the same way, when I want to discuss something with Andrew, there is literally no place for us to go without her being able to hear it, and then she gets upset and thinks I'm picking on him... just as daddy has said. But it's usually something like, "Don't say the f word in front of Alice." And I am not yelling but politely requesting. Then when he refuses to simply say, "Oh, OK, I won't do it again"instead choosing to argue about it, or denying that he ever said it, I do get mad. So it propels into me yelling and somehow, I think this is just what Andrew wants, to prove that I am harping on him.

I am so sorry he doesn't handle your illness well. I wish I were living nearby, so we could help one another out. It makes it that much worse when a loved one doesn't treat you with respect that you treat them with. I wonder what would happen if you took off to visit a relative for a week or two. Would he be more sensitive to your needs when you got back home? Of course, I know, the house would be a wreck when you got back, the dog shorn, and the kids eating junk food. It's not worth it...

Andrew is the same way, he is almost always healthy, so it's very difficult for him to understand not feeling right week after week after week. I used to get irritated when he would say, "go out and get some fresh air", or "work through it." as if it didn't exist or these simplistic answers were all there was to it. I know he thought it was that I wasn't getting enough exercise or something but it turns out that after a year of exercising I still wasn't able to lose the weight I put on. Lately, since he's had a few health situations himself, he's gotten much better and doesn't toss it off anymore. And probably also because I stopped eating wheat, which led to my feeling better, and he can see all the weight I dropped suddenly, it makes him tend to trust my opinion more. In fact, he's suddenly realizing that there are things out there that bother his health, and he is trying to be more broadminded, instead of chalking it up to his crazy wife again. He must know by now that I'm not one to go off the deep end to make things up. It's just so frustrating to not be able to talk about these things with the person who should care most.

One thing he does that absolutely drives me mad is laughing under his breath when I describe something, or talk about something that is very important to me, but to him it's a lot of hogwash. He'll give this little guffaw under his breath, which basically tells me he thinks I'm full of it. It's very painful, I don't understand why he would think I'd lie to him about something I was feeling or doing or thinking? His mother gets sick all the time and he literally runs to her house to make sure she's not having a heart attack, drives the 20 minutes there and back without complaining, without one word about her constantly calling him out of bed at night to make sure she's alright, as she always is... but if I say I've got a headache because I ate wheat, there it is that little guffaw again. It makes me want to smack him. I know it sounds crazy, but I'm the daughter of a scientist... I don't make claims without doing the research, making sure to test it out to see if it's real. So please don't laugh at my opinions. I'm not a "stupid woman" like his mother calls herself.

[CineMaven]

Alison, Wendy ... for some reason here, you're not receiving my PMs and I'm not seeing what I wrote in my SENT MESSAGES box, so let me say here publicly ( but not as humorously and in detail ) I've been enjoying reading about doggies, hubbys and compromise being the key to relationships' success. Learning a lot from you two.

[JackFavell]

Thanks, T! I hope we don't sound like The Real Housewives of the SSO....

[CineMaven]

Hi. No you don't. Though that IS a good idea for the title of a new thread around here...

[CineMaven]

...And by the way, I'm just trying to figure out which one of you is Ida Lupino and which one of you is Joan Fontaine?

I think ChrisAndrew might be a bigamist.

[RedRiver]

If I was married, my wife would probably choose to do most of the cooking. It's either that or Beefaroni!

[charliechaplinfan]

It's very cathartic. Andrew says those words in front of Alice too, this is my main bug bear with Chris, swearing, I always think it's just plain lazy not to use other words, he's educated enough and having the kids in earshot should be enough to temper his language, he must manage it in the classroom but no, he does it every day. I should make more of an issue about it but we've been together nearly 20 years, I've never liked it, I've always complained about it but he's never stopped. If I could change one thing that would be it.

I wish you lived close by, both of you, the movies we could watch whilst we put the world to rights. I can't talk to my mother about my health, we live close to her but she's so self absorbed that I couldn't talk to her, I can talk to Dad if he's by himself, if not Mum cuts us off. Chris doesn't do problems he can't solve. I think it's partly what it is, there is no cure for this illness, apart from rest but I'm unable to rest properly, I don't do still and Chris shrugs and says that it's OK the doctors saying what I should do but the reality is that I have a home and a family and they need looking after. Yet when I collapsed in the garage on Boxing day, that is real and it shook him up. I don't look ill and for the most part nobody would see that not even Chris and the kids because try to keep it from them as much as I can. I'm glad you're getting Andrew to take notice of your change of diet, maybe it's men they need to see the evidence with their own eyes to truly believe. That's why we differ wildly on religion but that's another matter which we quite happily agree to differ but the kids don't know who to copy. Chris doesn't really talk to his parents, I keep the relationship going for everyone's sake.

The fact we're still with them and them with us must mean we're doing something right.

[JackFavell]

Oh my gosh, I had no idea you collapsed in the garage! That's terrible. I hope you weren't there for a long time.

I think you are right, its what they cannot see, or maybe even worse, what they cannot DO anything about so they either fret or ignore it and pretend it's not real. Andrew's been really good for a while now. I'm almost afraid to type this since that almost always jinxes it... we'll probably have a big fight about it tonight.