Thanks KR! I am not sure what I think about Scott's coat story... I don't know if it was true or not, but I guess it doesn't matter much. But I thought Scott did a fairly good job in Ivers, her scenes were heartfelt.
I do love Dickie Moore in Out of the Past - he's what I remember from the last time I saw it ages ago.
Personally, I think Dickie was being kind to the girl, it's what Jeff would have done, would have wanted him to do.
Noir Films
Re: Noir Films
FEMME NOIR: HELL HATH NO FURY LIKE A WOMAN...TRAPPED
JACK FAVELL writes: "I have thoughts, but I am somewhat embarrassed to say them. I enjoy what you wrote, and you KNOW I love Jane Greer, but hope you aren't going to excommunicate me for my opinions here. So here's my list in order of liking:
Martha Ivers
Out of the Past
I Walk Alone"
What’s cookin’ Jack? Nahhhh... no ex-communication from me, ma’am. I’m not the boss of things. Not at all. My ranking looks like this:
“OUT OF THE PAST”
“...MARTHA IVERS”
“I WALK ALONE”
And believe me...Nos. 1 & 2 are always neck and neck.
With Martha Ivers and Kathie Moffat, I see two women who are living by their wits in a man’s world. They are trapped by deals they made with the Devil. And my sympathies go out to both these gals.
BARBARA STANWYCK. My gosh, is she a pro or what? She holds the reins on her emotions so expertly that she can call them up at a moment’s notice. Her first film was in 1929, so by the time “...Martha Ivers” rolls around she’s seventeen years (said with bared clench teeth as I spit out the years like Frankie Madison) in the business. I really never get the sense that Missy is “acting” like I do with Bette Davis (though Bette gets my vote all the time. Aaaah, it’s my own dilema that I struggle with between the two...but I digress).
Martha! Martha! Martha! The poor girl’s got the Sword of Damocles dangling over her head. When a blast from her past blows into town, she’s like the young princess waiting to being rescued from the (Weak) Evil Prince. She’s steely when she has to be and soft when she needs to be.
I always wait for the hotel room scene between Toni and Martha. It’s clear Martha has the killer instinct edge over the soft and pouty Toni,
( "If there's anything else you want me to say to her..." ) but the icy competitiveness in their exchange is always fun for me to watch.
< Sigh! > women fighting over men. Will we never learn? I liked how both women questioned Sam about each other: “Is she pretty?" I loved Sam’s answer to Martha: “Martha, I don’t think I’ve ever known you.” And buddy, THAT is the truth!!
No be-lying the chemistry between Heflin and Stanwyck. They’re great together. (P.S. Ann Doran was in the “Ivers” film).
I’m so happy you stayed up to watch “OUT OF THE PAST” and gave it a real chance. Mitchum, even as fourth choice, is perfect and I’d be hard pressed to see any other actor in the part of the double-crossed detective. I like that Jeff's detective skills kicks in after he’s dumped by Kathie. For me though, JANE GREER is the whole movie.
I can not take my eyes off of Jane Greer in this movie. I think she gave the performance of her career, in the (sadly) one film she is remembered for. Right now I’m thinking of Martha’s purposeful striding entrance into her film - out of a car in the rain...and Kathie Moffat’s entrance out of the sun into the cantina, languid...sensuous. There’d been such a build up of this girl. Whit wants her back inspite of the buckshot in his gut. When we finally see this girl...whoa. Now there might've been other more attractive actresses (Rita...Ava...Lana) known for being the bombshell. But in my very humblest of opinions, they can't touch Jane Greer as a femme fatale. She’s like no other lethal lady I’ve seen in all of the noir and as you and others know, there’s been some heckuva roster of femme fatales for our boys. She was deadly desirous.
You don’t love the movie? No problem. I’m just happy you enjoyed and appreciated it. This movie has enough lovers.
Here's something to ponder: do you want someone you can have or do you want someone you cannot have? With Martha and Kathie, looks like they might’ve been chasing something they never really could have.
JACK FAVELL writes: "I have thoughts, but I am somewhat embarrassed to say them. I enjoy what you wrote, and you KNOW I love Jane Greer, but hope you aren't going to excommunicate me for my opinions here. So here's my list in order of liking:
Martha Ivers
Out of the Past
I Walk Alone"
What’s cookin’ Jack? Nahhhh... no ex-communication from me, ma’am. I’m not the boss of things. Not at all. My ranking looks like this:
“OUT OF THE PAST”
“...MARTHA IVERS”
“I WALK ALONE”
And believe me...Nos. 1 & 2 are always neck and neck.
With Martha Ivers and Kathie Moffat, I see two women who are living by their wits in a man’s world. They are trapped by deals they made with the Devil. And my sympathies go out to both these gals.
BARBARA STANWYCK. My gosh, is she a pro or what? She holds the reins on her emotions so expertly that she can call them up at a moment’s notice. Her first film was in 1929, so by the time “...Martha Ivers” rolls around she’s seventeen years (said with bared clench teeth as I spit out the years like Frankie Madison) in the business. I really never get the sense that Missy is “acting” like I do with Bette Davis (though Bette gets my vote all the time. Aaaah, it’s my own dilema that I struggle with between the two...but I digress).
Martha! Martha! Martha! The poor girl’s got the Sword of Damocles dangling over her head. When a blast from her past blows into town, she’s like the young princess waiting to being rescued from the (Weak) Evil Prince. She’s steely when she has to be and soft when she needs to be.
I always wait for the hotel room scene between Toni and Martha. It’s clear Martha has the killer instinct edge over the soft and pouty Toni,
( "If there's anything else you want me to say to her..." ) but the icy competitiveness in their exchange is always fun for me to watch.
< Sigh! > women fighting over men. Will we never learn? I liked how both women questioned Sam about each other: “Is she pretty?" I loved Sam’s answer to Martha: “Martha, I don’t think I’ve ever known you.” And buddy, THAT is the truth!!
No be-lying the chemistry between Heflin and Stanwyck. They’re great together. (P.S. Ann Doran was in the “Ivers” film).
I’m so happy you stayed up to watch “OUT OF THE PAST” and gave it a real chance. Mitchum, even as fourth choice, is perfect and I’d be hard pressed to see any other actor in the part of the double-crossed detective. I like that Jeff's detective skills kicks in after he’s dumped by Kathie. For me though, JANE GREER is the whole movie.
I can not take my eyes off of Jane Greer in this movie. I think she gave the performance of her career, in the (sadly) one film she is remembered for. Right now I’m thinking of Martha’s purposeful striding entrance into her film - out of a car in the rain...and Kathie Moffat’s entrance out of the sun into the cantina, languid...sensuous. There’d been such a build up of this girl. Whit wants her back inspite of the buckshot in his gut. When we finally see this girl...whoa. Now there might've been other more attractive actresses (Rita...Ava...Lana) known for being the bombshell. But in my very humblest of opinions, they can't touch Jane Greer as a femme fatale. She’s like no other lethal lady I’ve seen in all of the noir and as you and others know, there’s been some heckuva roster of femme fatales for our boys. She was deadly desirous.
You don’t love the movie? No problem. I’m just happy you enjoyed and appreciated it. This movie has enough lovers.
Here's something to ponder: do you want someone you can have or do you want someone you cannot have? With Martha and Kathie, looks like they might’ve been chasing something they never really could have.
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JackFavell
- Posts: 11926
- Joined: April 20th, 2009, 9:56 am
Re: Noir Films
Well, now with that last sentence, you make me want to give Out of the Past another try. Cause I am always the gal who wants what she cannot have the most. 
I love the scene between Stany and Scott. The cool way that Stany dismisses Scott is wonderful. I always feel like Scott has a comeback but turns away instead because Heflin is there.
** I figured out that Ann Doran was in Ivers, but was writing quickly because Alice came home sick from school yesterday and I was in a tizzy. It just took me a while to remember which Whit was which.
*** I absolutely couldn't imagine ANYONE ELSE but Mitchum in the role of Jeff Bailey. No one. It's his role, and speaking of languid.... he's got that down pat. I thought he was perfect.....perfect.
As for Jane Greer, I could write a book about her just in this movie....I think from the two films I've seen, she could have done ANYTHING. It's truly a shame she didn't come up earlier in time, or have an agent who pushed her for more starring roles. The woman is fantastic, with her "civet eyes". They are uncanny, widening or narrowing, like a cat watching it's prey without letting anyone know it's looking. When a guy says a girl's eyes are like limpid pools in the moonlight, he's obviously talking about Jane Greer.
I love the scene between Stany and Scott. The cool way that Stany dismisses Scott is wonderful. I always feel like Scott has a comeback but turns away instead because Heflin is there.
** I figured out that Ann Doran was in Ivers, but was writing quickly because Alice came home sick from school yesterday and I was in a tizzy. It just took me a while to remember which Whit was which.
*** I absolutely couldn't imagine ANYONE ELSE but Mitchum in the role of Jeff Bailey. No one. It's his role, and speaking of languid.... he's got that down pat. I thought he was perfect.....perfect.
As for Jane Greer, I could write a book about her just in this movie....I think from the two films I've seen, she could have done ANYTHING. It's truly a shame she didn't come up earlier in time, or have an agent who pushed her for more starring roles. The woman is fantastic, with her "civet eyes". They are uncanny, widening or narrowing, like a cat watching it's prey without letting anyone know it's looking. When a guy says a girl's eyes are like limpid pools in the moonlight, he's obviously talking about Jane Greer.
Re: Noir Films
Top O’ the Mornin’ to You King Rat. For me too, it was seeing Van Heflin in “Johnny Eager” that made me really take notice of Heflin. Then little by little I’ve seen him or re-visited him in other films (“Possessed” “3:10 to Yuma” “Madame Bovary” “East Side, West Side”) and came away with a new respect for his talent. So I’m on his team now.
You’re with Illeana? Boy, let me PM you the explanation of the Meta section, though you could just plain watch Rhonda Fleming and let it go at that.
I sadly chuckled when you wrote this:
“Of course, then they're going to want to see more Jane Greer films, and that's kind of a problem.”
...because that’s so true, isn’t it. She didn’t do another film that was the caliber or popularity of “Out of the Past.” I’ve often wondered...is it better to have done just one film that you will be remembered for ever for, or none at all. Davis and Stanwyck and Loy and Crawford and Rita et al should be pleased and grateful for their legacy.
Toni Marachek is just a contrast to Martha. Martha's living tight as a drum...like a child who's been molested and can never speak on it, but all her life is informed by it. Toni and the coat...I take her at face value. Toni Marachek, good kid.
I a totally with you re: Dickie Moore in "Out of the Past." I love him in the film. Loved how he helped Jeff out...saw a lot but could say nothing. There was pathos to him. I liked reading what you wrote about him:
"The kid, who probably has a crush on Jeff, is left alone as keeper of Jeff's memory, as the final shot of 'Jeff Bailey' on the gas station sign suggests."
The movie has a sad ending. Jeff knew he wasn't going to make it.
Dickie Moore passed right by me at TCM's Vanity Fair party. I didn't have the courage to speak to him.
You’re with Illeana? Boy, let me PM you the explanation of the Meta section, though you could just plain watch Rhonda Fleming and let it go at that.
I sadly chuckled when you wrote this:
“Of course, then they're going to want to see more Jane Greer films, and that's kind of a problem.”
...because that’s so true, isn’t it. She didn’t do another film that was the caliber or popularity of “Out of the Past.” I’ve often wondered...is it better to have done just one film that you will be remembered for ever for, or none at all. Davis and Stanwyck and Loy and Crawford and Rita et al should be pleased and grateful for their legacy.
Toni Marachek is just a contrast to Martha. Martha's living tight as a drum...like a child who's been molested and can never speak on it, but all her life is informed by it. Toni and the coat...I take her at face value. Toni Marachek, good kid.
I a totally with you re: Dickie Moore in "Out of the Past." I love him in the film. Loved how he helped Jeff out...saw a lot but could say nothing. There was pathos to him. I liked reading what you wrote about him:
"The kid, who probably has a crush on Jeff, is left alone as keeper of Jeff's memory, as the final shot of 'Jeff Bailey' on the gas station sign suggests."
The movie has a sad ending. Jeff knew he wasn't going to make it.
Dickie Moore passed right by me at TCM's Vanity Fair party. I didn't have the courage to speak to him.
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Rita Hayworth
- Posts: 10068
- Joined: February 6th, 2011, 4:01 pm
Re: Noir Films
Playing Catch-Up
I wished that I seen these movies that all of you had talked and shared about in the past 2-3 pages. I missed TCM for almost a better part of two weeks over a faulty .59 cent part. Fortunately, I have a friend that has most of these films on DVD's and I will share my thoughts on them on a later date. To all members, that contributed to this thread ... I enjoyed reading and re-reading your impressions on the many classic Noir films that was on TCM not to long ago. I learned a lot from reading these and this helps me to understand noir films better than ever.
I wished that I seen these movies that all of you had talked and shared about in the past 2-3 pages. I missed TCM for almost a better part of two weeks over a faulty .59 cent part. Fortunately, I have a friend that has most of these films on DVD's and I will share my thoughts on them on a later date. To all members, that contributed to this thread ... I enjoyed reading and re-reading your impressions on the many classic Noir films that was on TCM not to long ago. I learned a lot from reading these and this helps me to understand noir films better than ever.
Re: Noir Films
Haaaaaaaa!JackFavell wrote:Well, now with that last sentence, you make me want to give Out of the Past another try. Cause I am always the gal who wants what she cannot have the most.
JackFavell wrote: I absolutely couldn't imagine ANYONE ELSE but Mitchum in the role of Jeff Bailey. No one. It's his role, and speaking of languid.... he's got that down pat. I thought he was perfect.....perfect.
MITCHUM AND VIRGINIA HUSTON in "OUT OF THE PAST."
Aaaah Mitchum. He's a man's man. ( "Alright, fold 'em or I'll fold 'em for you.") I thought he was so very fair to let that mug have his one smack at him...but no more. (That same actor was the one who picked a fight with Van Heflin in the restaurant in "The Strange Love of Martha Ivers" too: "There's got to be trouble...Outside would suit me fine.") I loved Mitchum's tenderness (and Rosza's music) out on the lake with Virginia Huston. He was so gentle with her. Did you see his little laugh when she asked him if he were ever married? When he kissed her, I loved the way his hair fell. When she kissed him, I think I saw Huston really lean into Mitchum's mouth. Hey, I'm not a crazy cinematic Peeping Tomasina...I'm just trying to get you folks the details of the movie.
JackFavell wrote: ...As for Jane Greer, I could write a book about her just in this movie....I think from the two films I've seen, she could have done ANYTHING. It's truly a shame she didn't come up earlier in time, or have an agent who pushed her for more starring roles. The woman is fantastic, with her "civet eyes". They are uncanny, widening or narrowing, like a cat watching it's prey without letting anyone know it's looking.
Your description is delicious Jack, and right on point too. I wonder if Greer opted for marriage and children over the career. I mean the second time around; not with Rudy Vallee. (What am I missing about Rudy? This makes me think of James Dunn being married to Frances Gifford. What's THAT all about?!)
I remember in your wonderfully written post on "SHANGHAI EXPRESS" you wondered how Clive Brook kept his cool during his scene when Dietrich pivots around him with her hand on his chest. In "Out of the Past" Kirk Douglas has a moment with Greer where he looks insecure as she looks at him. Later on, the way he walks over to her and slaps her in the face shows he took his power back. But I especially wonder with Mitchum how he kept his...shall we say "composure" when she was so close. (Of course vice versa applies...his testosterone-y magnetism and maleness must have been quite heady for his leading ladies). But I'm thinking of Mitchum's and Greer's scene on the beach...and especially in the cabin when they came in out of the rain. Some actresses had "The Voice", other actresses had "The Look" and wasn't there a Marie McDonald who was known as "The Body"? (Women reduced to their parts. Loverly.
) There were those girls with "Oomph" or "It. But Jane Greer's eyes are mesmerizing and devastating. You say it best Jackie:JackFavell wrote:When a guy says a girl's eyes are like limpid pools in the moonlight, he's obviously talking about Jane Greer.
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feaito
Re: Noir Films
I only want to say that I admire your ability to write down your thoughts in such an intelligent way pals; I've been completely enthralled by the insightful exchange of ideas in this thread, which has encouraged me to watch Out of the Past yet one more time In fact, I think I'm going to invite a friend to see it with me.
In fact, I think I'm going to invite a friend to see it with me.Re: Noir Films
Feaito, please do come back and tell us your thoughts upon revisiting "OUT OF THE PAST." I'll be curious of your friend's thoughts as well. I'm looking forward to it...and will be on the look out on this thread, for it.
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Mr. Arkadin
- Posts: 2645
- Joined: April 14th, 2007, 3:00 pm
Re: Noir Films
From what I remember, Greer's career was stalled and shortened by Howard Hughes, who discovered her (and several other young girls he wanted to bed) and signed her to a personal contract, from which she escaped through marriage to Rudy Vallee, who helped her get out of her contract and got her signed to RKO. When Hughes took over that studio, Greer was on her second husband and once again refused his advances. He retaliated by not giving her parts, having her followed, and even snooping through her medical files (he actually called Greer to tell her she was pregnant!).CineMaven wrote:JackFavell wrote: ...As for Jane Greer, I could write a book about her just in this movie....I think from the two films I've seen, she could have done ANYTHING. It's truly a shame she didn't come up earlier in time, or have an agent who pushed her for more starring roles. The woman is fantastic, with her "civet eyes". They are uncanny, widening or narrowing, like a cat watching it's prey without letting anyone know it's looking.
Your description is delicious Jack, and right on point too. I wonder if Greer opted for marriage and children over the career. I mean the second time around; not with Rudy Vallee. (What am I missing about Rudy? This makes me think of James Dunn being married to Frances Gifford. What's THAT all about?!)
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JackFavell
- Posts: 11926
- Joined: April 20th, 2009, 9:56 am
Re: Noir Films
Yeessh. Rudy must have looked pretty good after Hughes.
Actually, I am a big fan of both Rudy and James Dunn. I suspect Rudy of having some hidden assets.
Fer, I'm just so glad you are back! We''ve missed you greatly.
Actually, I am a big fan of both Rudy and James Dunn. I suspect Rudy of having some hidden assets.
Fer, I'm just so glad you are back! We''ve missed you greatly.
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feaito
Re: Noir Films
Thank you Wendy and Theresa for your kind words, I've been a little bit under the weather lately. On june 9th things became very complicated at work due to some events that happened and a huge period of stress began, which did not permit me to post here as I did before. Then, on July 26th I suffered -the 2nd since 2009- from an episode of acute pancreatitis. This time with new exams the doctors discovered a cist/tumor in my pancreas which was removed in a extensive and complex surgery procedure I underwent on August 10th. They took it away just in time because it was pre-malignant and already turning into malignant. I spent 17 days at the hospital. I'll be on medical leave until September 26th when I return to work (after 2 months out of circulation). This has been one of the most difficult experiences in my life, because I had never been operated before or had such a serious illness. It has taken a huge physical an emotional toll on me, but little by little I've been feeling better and I've recovered enough forces to post here.
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movieman1957
- Administrator
- Posts: 5522
- Joined: April 15th, 2007, 3:50 pm
- Location: MD
Re: Noir Films
Murder By Contract
Pardon the interruption.....
I found it a very odd picture. Part of that must be dictated by the budget. It must have been somewhere in the "next to nothing" area. Vince Edwards is a very one note performance for me. You hardly know anything about him. Maybe you don't need to because his motivation is strictly money. (Part of which makes his "chivalry" so out of character when a woman is involved.) He is an odd character himself. The scene with the waiter gives him two sides. He gets after the waiter for bringing him a dirty cup and the gives him a nice tip. It's a complaint and a life lesson all in the same rant. He is smart, methodical and patient. At least there is a little contrast to - his partners.
That is everything "Mutt and Jeff" aren't. "Mark" and "George" are like an old married couple. They are hardly apart. They are almost in every scene together. Even Mark acknowledges he is a meathead so the idea of them being able to take care of Claude seems a bit humorous. It is also unfortunate when they try.
It suffers, in my opinion, from its being cheap. If they could have got someone more interesting than Edwards it might have been better. (John Payne? Though he would be too old.) It relies too much on sound to make the point of the action and it just screams "B" picture.
I watched the Scorsese interview about it and he calls the music hypnotic. Hardly! Quirky and late in the film it uses a long series of a five note riff to the point of annoyance. It was like having a scratch on an old record. Scorsese referenced a similarity to "The Third Man." Well, only in the sense that it has a guitar instead of a zither. It's not very attractive to me.
I've come to really like noirs and "B" noirs are often very good but this one wasn't all that compelling for me.
Now, back to your regularly scheduled discussion.
Pardon the interruption.....
I found it a very odd picture. Part of that must be dictated by the budget. It must have been somewhere in the "next to nothing" area. Vince Edwards is a very one note performance for me. You hardly know anything about him. Maybe you don't need to because his motivation is strictly money. (Part of which makes his "chivalry" so out of character when a woman is involved.) He is an odd character himself. The scene with the waiter gives him two sides. He gets after the waiter for bringing him a dirty cup and the gives him a nice tip. It's a complaint and a life lesson all in the same rant. He is smart, methodical and patient. At least there is a little contrast to - his partners.
That is everything "Mutt and Jeff" aren't. "Mark" and "George" are like an old married couple. They are hardly apart. They are almost in every scene together. Even Mark acknowledges he is a meathead so the idea of them being able to take care of Claude seems a bit humorous. It is also unfortunate when they try.
It suffers, in my opinion, from its being cheap. If they could have got someone more interesting than Edwards it might have been better. (John Payne? Though he would be too old.) It relies too much on sound to make the point of the action and it just screams "B" picture.
I watched the Scorsese interview about it and he calls the music hypnotic. Hardly! Quirky and late in the film it uses a long series of a five note riff to the point of annoyance. It was like having a scratch on an old record. Scorsese referenced a similarity to "The Third Man." Well, only in the sense that it has a guitar instead of a zither. It's not very attractive to me.
I've come to really like noirs and "B" noirs are often very good but this one wasn't all that compelling for me.
Now, back to your regularly scheduled discussion.
Chris
"Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana."
"Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana."
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JackFavell
- Posts: 11926
- Joined: April 20th, 2009, 9:56 am
Re: Noir Films
Oh Fer, I really feel for you! I thought you were just on an extended vacation!
I am so glad they were able to get it out before it turned and spread. How awful for you. It's hard when you've always been healthy to have something happen like that. If you need anything at all let us know. We are just so glad you are back, it is not the same without you.
I am so glad they were able to get it out before it turned and spread. How awful for you. It's hard when you've always been healthy to have something happen like that. If you need anything at all let us know. We are just so glad you are back, it is not the same without you.
Re: Noir Films
'Nando, it's so good to see you posting again. Take it easy, watch movies, and let Barbara pamper you to her heart's content!
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moira finnie
- Administrator
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- Contact:
Re: Noir Films
Thank God you are back with us and I hope with all my heart that you are soon feeling well again, Fernando. I'll be in touch again soon. Please take care of yourself. Even at this distance, your presence is always a plus and sorely missed when you are absent.