jdb1 wrote:It's small wonder that someone like Katharine Hepburn was so celebrated -- she did what so many women wished they had the courage (and the money) to do.
Wasted her life on a married alcoholic? Hell, I've done that, too.
Why do you say Hepburn "wasted" her life? It's not likely she felt that way about it.
If she felt strongly about Tracy, and accepted him as he was, good times and bad, and was essentially happy in the relationship, how is that a "waste?" She liked taking care of him, and I don't think she would have stayed with him if she wanted marriage. It's as she said about children - she adored children, but someone else's, not her own. As opinionated, self-absorbed and obstinately independent as she could be, she herself couldn't have been all that easy to get along with.
Do you think any other relationship she may have had would have been perfection, all the time? I doubt it.
jdb1 wrote:Why do you say Hepburn "wasted" her life? It's not likely she felt that way about it.
Let's just say I don't find the Hepburn/Tracy pairing as adorable and romantic as many people seem to. Nursing a married man though 30 years of binges doesn't strike me as a relationship to admire (it was even worse than I thought, if William Mann's recent Hepburn bio is to be believed).
Mind you, I think Spencer Tracy was one of the great actors of the 20th century!
To paraphrase Erich Segal, "Love means never having to say your sorry for what you've done or felt." It may have been her maternal instinct shining through and her desire to care for and protect the man she loved. But that's just my humble and unenlightened opinion. But there may be something to it, who knows?
Gosh, there are so many different veins running through this thread.
I always dress smartly for church, I nearly always wear a little makeup, I'm naturally very pale so I look unwell without it, the same for my legs, I have to cover up. My only complaint against hosiery is that the prettier sheerer fabric is easy to ladder.
My usual weekday attire are trousers if I'm with the kids, dressed up for work and at weekends I tend to wear skirts. I like femininity, I like being a woman and taking care of my appearance. I also have to consider that I have a young daughter and if I adopt the 'slob' approach that isn't going to instill pride in appearance into her. I probably am old fashioned and traditional but I do know some mothers my age who have the same approach.
My abhorrence is unsightly displays of flesh especially the midriff, bulging over the top of trousers ususlly with a navel piercing. Can people not see how bad it makes them look? It makes them look bigger than they are.
Legs without tights on are called 'corned beef legs' here because of the mottling of colour is similar to a tin of corned/bully beef (I hope that translates across the Atlantic)
I hate sandals and dress down days at work. I think church should be respected enough not to wear sandals or shorts.
When I was a teenager twenty years ago, my Dad was managing an office, he told his female staff to wear makeup and show pride in their appearance or not bother coming to work. He'd be up in front of a tribunal these day.
As for Katharine Hepburn, I don't think for one minute she'd have stayed with him if she didn't want to. I remember reading the closing chapters of her autobiography. The words she spoke about her love for him really touched my heart. he was far from perfect and their relationship far from ideal but in her words, she loved him and would have done anything for him. In her younger years she strikes me as someone very self centred, she perhaps never completely lost that but with Spencer she gave completely to another person. Still she retained her freedom to an extent. When she made The African Queen, Spencer didn't go with her, she went alone but Bogir dragged Lauren Bacall along away from her child. I don't know a great deal about Spencer, did he love her? Someone else will have to tell me but she sure loved him.
Failure is unimportant. It takes courage to make a fool of yourself - Charlie Chaplin
If he didn't love her, he was a fool; and I don't think Tracy was a fool.
I harbor no Romantic notions about their relationship; it must have been very difficult for both of them, and reports of Tracy's antisocial behavior, especially when drunk, are well known. However, people get different things out of a relationship, and just because we might not opt for such an arrangement doesn't mean it didn't work for them.
Hepburn was a very strong-minded and self-absorbed woman, and Tracy was a difficult and sometimes cantankerous man. I think that highly creative people often have unconventional ways of dealing with the pressures of their talents. But from what I've heard and read about them, when they were good together, they were very good, and other actors who have worked with them have praised to the skies their good humor, kindness and professionalism.
All of this talk now about their relationship is after the fact: when they were both alive, it was more of a secret (albeit an open secret among the Hollywood community) but not given the air time, and not subject to the analytical hindsight that it is now.
If I go to church I'll wear what ever i feel like day that pacific day. That could mean a suit (I haven't worn a tie since my mother's funeral a yr ago), jeans or something else casual, depending on my mood, which has been a bit depressing recently. I think it's down to the individual how he or she dresses at a church service
About 20 yrs ago I noticed Women Church goers would often wear a skirt or a dress for morning service, but would wear trousers at night for evening worship. That was a change from the days women were expected to wear hats with their skirts or dresses bck in my childhood days. Now it doesn't matter, a woman can wear what she wants to a Baptist church where I belong without fear of judgement. Mind you a Jehovah Witness friend of mine told me that for regular attendance short skirts and trousers are discouraged. That seems harsh to me, partuculary for wearing trousers, as many women now don't wear skirts at all. However, as with men, I think woman should be able to worship dressed as they please, wheather in skirts and dresses of any length, trousers or jeans, or even shorts. it's the fact that they are there that's the most important thing
Beautifully put Judith, I heartily agree with you.
Stuart,
I dress up for church, it feels right for me. I don't have any problems with people coming to church dressed casually, after all the importance is in them coming to church in the first place. I just think shorts and sandals are a little too casual.
This has reminded me of another great bugbear. It's men who don't wear tops to go into a place of business when it's hot here. I don't know if this happens in the States but when it's hot here, it feels really hot and seeing as we never know how long it's going to last everyone wants to make the absolute best of it. I've worked in customer facing roles all my life and I just hate to serve a man who hasn't had the decency to put a t-shirt or a shirt on before entering a place of business. It's natural for men who are working outside to shed their shirts on a warm day but is it just me it does not seem the right thing to do.
Another great thing about our unpredictable weather is that everyone seems to run outside and soak it up for the first couple of days but after that some people start complaining, they can't sleep, it's too hot etc. Again I don't know whether this is just a British thing .
Failure is unimportant. It takes courage to make a fool of yourself - Charlie Chaplin
Alison, a very common sign in windows of business establishments here in the Middle West is "No shoes, no shirts, no service".
I might wear trousers to church in the winter, but never jeans. I recently attended a Sunday morning service and there were only a few women in dresses. Most were in casual trousers or mid-calf capris. One mid-age female was in very short shorts. It was very off-putting, and it detracted from the service.
I agree about the excessive displays of skin. We all look better with clothes on. (I can hear the fellows here groaning), but imagination is a wonderful thing.....
"Life is not the way it's supposed to be.. It's the way it is..
The way we cope with it, is what makes the difference." ~ Virginia Satir
""Most people pursue pleasure with such breathless haste that they hurry past it." ~ Soren Kierkegaard
That's a good sign, I like that. I just don't know what happens to some people here when the sun comes out. When I was a teen my father and my friends father had a thing for wearing the shortest swimming trunks they could find to get the best tan and they would drive us in to town to meet our friends. I don't know what is more embarrassing, being dropped off by your own father who was wearing very short swimming trunks or by my freinds father, I didn't know where to look. Thank heaven's that fad has passed.
I think a bit of mystery is far better than putting too much on show.
Failure is unimportant. It takes courage to make a fool of yourself - Charlie Chaplin
I remember, Alison, that when we would see British movies, or newsreels of Brits at the beach, everyone would snicker at the short-shorts worn by the men. Such attire was considered rather "girly" here.
In fact when I was a little girl, American men rarely wore shorts of any kind, and never wore sandals. Wearing sandals was considered "JOB" ("Just off the boat.") When the Beach Boy/surfer thing started in the mid-60s, it became socially acceptable for men to wear shorts, generally cut off jeans. But those "baggies" that the surfers wore did not catch on here in the East until the 80s. Now they all wear them, and I think they are ghastly. Men look like little boys wearing their fathers' cast-offs.
I know what you mean about the surfer shorts, they're fine on my three year old, even teenagers. It's quite a popular look here. There is definetly a point when shorts are too short. I don't think shorts can ever be dressy.
It made me smile thinking of you all snickering about our men's shorts in years gone by .
Do you have the tanning craze too? I'm not into the orange look at all, even on Cary Grant. Now it's fashionable to be that colour. Not many people tan a shade of orange but with fake tan everyone is that colour. I'll stick to my natural pale look, thank you.
Failure is unimportant. It takes courage to make a fool of yourself - Charlie Chaplin
Lord, yes, there are tanning salons on every street corner.
Coincidentally, there's an article this week in the NY Times about the surge in melanomas, especially among younger women, which the researchers attribute directly to the surge in tanning beds. You've got to be crazy to do that to yourself.
I'm not a big fan of the year-round bronze; and I certainly have no interest in slowly turning myself into leather, either.
I suppose if you want to look tanned it's safer to go down the fake tan route.
How things change, my Mum was always topping up her tan when the sun was out, (it was the eighties) and although she used suncream on us it would be nowhere near the amount I would apply today. Nowadays we know to be more careful. I'd rather have overcast days were the kids can play out to their hearts content than days when it's just to hot to step outside.
Failure is unimportant. It takes courage to make a fool of yourself - Charlie Chaplin
I have to take exception to what "egolden" wrote about not finding Ms Hepburn's devotion to Mr Tracy an admirable thing. To the contrary, loving someone as much as she did him regardless of his faults is a more than admirable pursuit. I would venture a guess (and I know little if anything of either of their personal lives) that the man possessed qualities that Ms Hepburn found to far outweigh his shortcomings. He evidently filled a void, if you will, in her life that no one else ever had or possibly ever could. The fact that they never married does not indicate an unrequited love but the deepest of devotional relationships. They were both intelligent, insightful people who were well aware of the intricacies of the situation they found themselves in. To love each other the way they did in defiance of convention must have required a great deal of courage on both their parts.
How did we get from a woman's image in the 1940's to where we are now? I don't know but that's one of the things I love about this forum. You never know where it will lead and I've yet to hear of anyone taking offense at something that someone else has written. I can't believe my good fortune in being included among such well spoken and erudite people. Not a day goes by that I don't learn something new. I thank you all for that. I only wish I had a way to adequately express that gratitude. I guess I'll just say that I'm thankful that you've accepted me for what I am (who knows what that is?)
I have never been one to chase after a tan. To me nothing is more boring than sitting around and baking in the sun like a cupcake. Watching paint drying on the wall is more exciting. If I can run around and play tennis, or ride a bike, rollerskate, anything is better than just sitting as my friends used to do - blah. But then, I'm not much, nor never have been an outside person. I prefer reading a good book in the a/c. As a kid I used to ride my bike to the library and read all afternoon because the library was air conditioned.
Oh Judith, I simply LOVED the shoulder pads of the 80's - the bigger, the better, so many people need them because of slumped shoulders.
What got me were some of Rosalind's hair styles this past couple of weeks. That one that looks kind of like a big, fat roll, that formed sort of a V in the front was a show stopper. I've seen Crawford, Stanwyck, and Rita Hayworth all wearing the same style. I never realized before how often Roz wore pin stripes both in suits and dresses, but the best outfit of all was the dress in The Women with the eyes over each breast. That was a dilly!
Anne
Anne
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it does not seem the right thing to do. 
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