Hate

[jdb1]

I think the wide-open gov't spending has been going on since 1980, when voodoo trickle-downs said "Small gov't is great" and then quadrupled the size of the White House staff from the previous admins. They've been spending money willy-nilly for many many years but refuse to take responsibility for it.

And what's the difference between forced, legislated payments to insurance companies and paying taxes for socialized benefits? We are all forced now to have auto insurance. Why not just tax it? We're forced to get health insurance - why not just create it as a tax? "The gov't can't run this as well" as - WHO? AIG? Yeah, great slogan for the simple-minded hatemongers.

You raise a very good point, Ollie, and one which anti-reformers have worked to their advantage through misinformation.

I don't see what the big deal is. There are two alternatives here in health care -- either scrap what we've got and make it government run, or revise the private system to be more equitable to the insured. We insureds are the consumers. In other industries the rights and needs of the consumer are considered -- why not in health care? The scare tactic about how instituting a federal health care system would be putting our insurance decisions "in the hands of bureaucrats" is ridiculous. In whose hands are those decisions now? Who's running the insurance companies -- nuns? I say, whatever works best for the insured is what should be done. Whether I pay for my medical coverage through an insurance company or through a the government tax, I'm still paying for it. Nobody has offered us free health care coverage - we still have to pay, whatever method we finally get. And if my money is mutually pooled to provide health care for those who can't afford it (and why is it they can't afford it - who is addressing that issue?), that's fine with me. My insurance premiums are being pooled now anyway.

A healthy country is a productive country, and that benefits all of us in the long run. Besides, shouldn't the emphasis on health care be on maintenance and prevention, rather than on the curative? If we were healthy enough to not need extensive medical care in the first place, we wouldn't be having this debate now.

[MichiganJ]

movieman1957 wrote:

Whether you like Limbaugh, Hannity, etc. one thing you really can't say they have contempt for the American people. If that is the case then people are a lot dumber than anyone might imagine because these people have larger audiences than anyone else by far.

Actually I think they do have contempt for the American people. Neither Hannity, Limbaugh, etc. are journalists and what they are doing is far from news, despite what the network name is. Limbaugh himself, when asked, says he's an "entertainer". The problem with his show and Hannity's, O'Reilley's (who actually was a journalist but then left to become host of Inside Edition), etc. is that they don't come with a laugh track. At least Jon Stewart and Stephen Colbert are filmed in front of live audience.

If people watch any of these shows to get their news (and I include MSNBC), and worse, if it's there only source for their news, then, yes, they are dumb. Proof? How about the inanity that is the "birthers". The very fact that there is a name for these numbskulls proves:
1. People are a lot dumber than anyone might imagine, and
2. Limbaugh, Hannity, do have contempt for the American people. (Seriously, you don't honestly believe that THEY believe Obama isn't a citizen, do you?)

More proof?
How about the inanity that Obama's health care will tell the elder how long they are going to live.
Here, not only do Limbaugh and Hannity, etc. have contempt, they are rubbing their hands in utter glee. When they go on one of their rants about this, I can just hear the canned laughter that used to accompany fine TV programs like Three's Company. Too bad the elderly can't.

Worse than these bozos--who were upfront in wanting Obama to fail (which, of course, means we all fail, but that's not their problem)--are our great and esteemed congress men and women, who themselves have the gall to stand up in front of the American people and proclaim that the Democrats health plan wants to set an end date for our elderly. There are only two things these congress men and women can be:
I. Really, really stupid, or
2. Cold manipulative liars.


As for healthcare; conservatives seem to think that everything is fine the way it is, which, for the rich ones is likely true. But it's also true that, even with insurance, many of us are one serious illness or accident away from bancruptcy. And I'd venture to say that many of the international members of this very board would not want to change their health care coverage for ours.

[jdb1]

Any entity that consistently lies to you can be said to hold you in contempt, and I'm not that naive that I believe that it's only Fox News that bends the truth in the name of a news exclusive. We should take it as a given that no matter what major news source we consult, we are going to be subjected to some hazy boundaries for the truth.

And tell me, do the anti-health reformist really think that their own mortality is so safe with their current health programs? How many people in this country are condemned to death every day through the denial by their insurers of needed (and wildly overpriced) health procedures? Too many, as far as I can determine. I myself was a victim of my insurance carrier only a few months ago -- they nagged me for months about a medication I was using because they consider it too expensive, and they finally required that my doctor call them for "authorization" every single time I got a refill. The one and only time his office called for authorization, they were kept on hold for almost 45 minutes. Luckily for me, there is a viable and less expensive alternative, though not necessarily the best alternative. Suppose the medication in question was a life-sustaining one? What would have happened to me?

To my mind, however, the bottom line is that the wrong perpetrators are being challenged here. If I were in charge, I would be going after the pharmaceutical companies, medical equipment suppliers, and medical specialists. Their greed and disdain of the people they purport to serve are at the root of the current health care "crisis."

[mrsl]

When it comes to insurance, those who need it most are young parents of kids who bring home all kinds of problems from school, from virus infections, to falling on the playground, and the others are the elderly who are living on Social Security. Those of you in your 30's and 40's are lucky because you've received information since you were in high school about your retirement, however, those of us who are already up there did not have that info. We lived happily along thinking SS would take care of our 'golden years', never dreaming that eventually it would cost more than two dollars for a loaf of bread, or a gallon of milk, let alone four dollars for the gallon of gas we started out paying twenty-five cents for. When many of us did realize what was happening in our early 50's, suddenly many of us were being laid off to make room for younger people/college grads, so we ended up as clerks in the kind of stores we used to manage, without a college degree.

The point I want to make here is when I hear those news 'reporters' damning what the president is trying to do, I think of what their president did to us in the last eight years, and I want to smash in their faces. This is what I meant way back about 3 posts ago, about one hand helping the other. These so called reporters or entertainers, whatever, are definitely trying to incite mob rule as you said. This president is not going to live long if these idiots are allowed to continue their tirades and insults. If the American people are dumb enough to take them seriously, then we are in for a horrible time ahead, and I dread my grand kids having to live through it. Can't people see that these morons are using the same methods that all dictators use by drawing the public into their sick little worlds? We need a lot more Jon Stewarts to talk these idiots down, and we need them to start right now if we want to see the next decade.

Anne

[rohanaka]

I realize that what I am about to say will likely not be popular here. But after reading some of the things I have seen on this thread, I feel led to speak up if only to present an alternate point of view. I do not suppose in any way that anything I will say is going to change anyone's mind, so please do not assume that this is my purpose in writing. I simply desire to share my own opinion on a few of the topics that have been mentioned. And I will endeavor to do this with respect and with understanding that we all have our own way of looking at the world.

the amount of hate & irrationality that apparently is on the rise in this country

I agree w/ Chris that while these things are troubling, they likely would NOT be the reason for:

our days as a constitutional republic are near an end.

Hate and irrationality would be more of a symptom than a cause.

Regarding the ideas about government run healthcare, I could not disagree more w/ much of what has been said, especially with regard to the comments that since we legislate the need for car insurance we might as well do the same with healthcare. While it is true that states mandate motor vehicle coverage, it is more a matter of liability (to protect the OTHER driver) But I do not believe a state requires the owner of a car to purchase any covarage for his OWN property. (at least not in any state I have ever owned a car in) A car owner is free to purchase (or not purchase) as much coverage for his own vehicle as he chooses. It is only if you choose to finance your vehicle rather than pay cash that you are also mandated (by the lien holder) to carry more insurance than basic liability. So car insurance is one thing, individual health insurance is a whole other “animal”. And it should not be mandated or “run” by any federal or state organization.

And while it is true that health insurance does need some sort of "overhaul" perhaps, and that insurance rates and medical costs are out of control, the fact remains that if you are dissatisfied w/ the cost or coverage of your health insurance, you are free (and you should be) to shop around. (just like you can shop around for car insurance, by the way) . There are no easy fixes, but asking the government to step in and run it all is not the answer.(And incidentally, I believe the majority of the people in our nation DO have adequate health coverage under the present system.) And yes, keeping insurance and health care privately run, rather than government run does mean that some folks will have less than others and that some will have no insurance at all. But I submit to you that there are worse things than that. Since when do we always have to have every situation in life made "equal" for us?

And lest you think I am calling down from my ivory tower to say all this to you, I would like to go on record as saying that I live (very happily) in a small two bedroom ranch house. Both my husband an I drive inexpensive cars that are well over 5 (his is 10) years old. And I am also now (and have been for SEVERAL MONTHS) an unemployed, uninsured person. If ANYONE would be interested in all the things the current administration is attempting to do, it should be me. But the truth is, I am not looking for them to fix anything FOR me. I would rather they STOP trying so hard to fix things for me so much.

(And as an aside, I should also state that since my daughter was a newborn, we have carried a private pay basic health coverage policy just for her. It costs my husband and me dearly to privately pay for her health insurance for our young daughter (and believe me when I tell you that her insurance premium is not VERY expensive, but neither are we VERY wealthy, so that premium is a LOT for us to come up with each month) and yet I MUCH prefer this to any of the state kid’s insurance plans I have seen or read about.)

I, and many who think as I do, are certainly NOT in favor (as some have insinuated) of any sort of “self ruling society” with no government at all. But for too long now our society has placed all its trust and hope in the government to "fix" whatever it is we think is broken. (Healthcare and/or insurance are just one more in a long list of items the government now wants to “fix” for us) And as a result, we now have an economy that is out of control and so many government programs we can't see over top of the paperwork that it takes to apply for them all. We are far too “reliant” on unreliable people and far too wiling to let others take charge of what SHOULD be our own decisions, our own successes and failures in life. And as a consequence, when it is all said and done, we have become a nation of "it's MINE because I DESERVE it" sort of people rather than a society of "I've worked hard and have earned it" kinda folks.

I am not saying it is wrong for the government to assist those in need. I do think there are times when government assistance can and does “fix” problems that would otherwise go unanswered in our society. But it is not the government's job to bail out private businesses that were poorly managed by inept and/or corrupt businessmen, help people stay in a home they likely should not have tried to buy in the first place, or even give us money for our "clunkers" so we can buy a new "better for the environment" car.

And (jdb1) to answer your question regarding why people can’t afford healthcare, (and/or other things) many of us are only in need (or have lost jobs, or are fighting to stay afloat, etc) because of the way our economy has become so ridiculously overrun with heavy tax burdens and an embarrassing dependency on foreign goods and services. And our current system of slap on another government program for a "bandaid" is not going to fix that. It is not the government’s job (nor their responsibility, nor even their right) to fix every little problem that comes down the pike for us.

After all, our most valued document, the US Constitution, clearly states: “ We the people, of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union,” etc. etc. Nowhere does it say “We the GOVERNMENT of the United States in order to better and/or improve the lives of its people, etc, etc.” The government is to be more of an agent OF the people, rather than FOR the people. WE are the ones who keep IT afloat, but it is not mandated or designed to keep US that way. Yet that is what is happening now, and our tax dollars are being used for purposes they were not ever designed to be used for. So when I see government officials looking for even MORE money from me to fix someone else's problems, it is a bit upsetting.

And again, just to reiterate, I am not without compassion. I DO understand that there are real people out there with real needs. But it is NOT going to get better by adding even MORE debt to our national budget and even MORE government run programs.

And going back to (or at least close to) the original topic, I respectfully disagree with the insinuation (whether accidental or intended) that those who oppose the "popular" administration are hatemongers or attempting to incite a riot. Since when is it suddenly HATEFUL (or even disrespectful) to ask our elected officials to account for how they vote (supposedly on our behalf)?

While it is true that there are some "hotheads" out there, most conservatives who are now questioning the tactics of many in the present administration are simply speaking their mind. Yes, one can and should do that in the voting booth, but we are also guaranteed a voice by our founding Fathers in many other ways too. Is Congress or the President , or even the Supreme Court above scrutiny? Should they NOT be questioned and asked to account for the many decisions they make on our behalf? (no matter whether we agree OR disagree with them) Congress is supposed to represent the voters, not "make decisions in place of the voters" If they truly believe they are doing right by their constituency and are representing the TRUE will of those they serve, they should not hesitate to make themselves available for private and/or public discussion with their voters. And they certainly should not discount any attempt by those voters at open debate or a free exchange of ideas.

I suppose those who are carrying those signs at today's tax tea parties would like the our water supplies to be un-fluoridated? Back in the day, their parents were calling that phenomenon "socialism."

And again, with respect, I feel you do not have a clear view of what the Tea Party movement is truly all about. It is not enough to rely only on one sided reporting from those opposed to Conservative causes. I have watched and read a LOT of comments about this movement and I can tell you from personal observation and experience that most of the cable news commentators and newsreporters have no interest in showing the true nature of these events. But rather, they pick and choose a select few to represent all those in attendance. And they usually only show those who match up to their own preconceived notion or personal bias of what a “tea party person” is like.

Have you actually walked THROUGH a Tea Party and spoken w/ more than the few outlandish and ridiculous folks that always seem to get chosen by the media (out of a LARGE crowd of otherwise thoughtful and well spoken, concerned, taxpaying citizens)? I have, and on more than one occasion. And I can tell you these people are neither hatemongers, nor idiotic. And they are not “anti government“ nor even necessarily “anti-fluoride”. (to use your description) But they are concerned voters. They are concerned taxpayers. And they do have a Constitutional right to their political opinion. (and also a right to express it publicly).

Many, if not most, of these people feel they are not being heard, nor represented in and by their government. So having this deeply felt opinion, is it right or wrong for such people, such taxpaying citizenry, to speak up or stay silent?

And if they DO speak up, are they spreading hate? Or are they simply trying to be heard over the din of liberal rhetoric that gets spoonfed to many in our society under the guise of most of the cable news programs and newspapers.

It is not hate to think for yourself. It is not hate to exercise your Constitutional right as a citizen to speak up for issues that concern you, even if they go against popular thought. And it certainly is not hate to band together with a common goal to make more citizens aware that there are things in our government we should be concerned about. (And It’s not even hate to publicly protest your elected officials if you feel they are not properly representing you. If it were, then I guess our founding forefathers at the first Tea Party would all be hateful too.)

Should anyone be disorderly or shout rude and ugly comments or yell or name call? No. Should they lie and distort facts to promote their own agenda? Of course not. And while there are SOME who may behave this way, it is not typical of most conservative voters that I have seen. But even if it were, the conservative movement does NOT have a monopoly on THAT sort of behavior. The Liberals seem to conveniently forget how MUCH has happened by their own in recent years (especially when they were not in "power”)

And it still goes on by many on the "left" today, but it is only now, when they seem to be sitting high and reveling in their present "glory" that they have no room for those of us who disagree with their policies or their agenda. How quickly they forget their own poor behavior, (name calling, outright lying, and misrepresentation and mischaracterization of MANY on the conservative side). In fact, that still goes on today by MANY in the left camp. But when THEY do it, it is LOVE. Love for the American people. Love for their country. Love for the “TRUTH”.

It is only when someone disagrees with them that it is called hate.

And lest you now are thinking I am a hate monger too, please know that I have thought long and hard before making these comments here. And nothing I have said was intended to offend. It is all written with an attitude of genuine respect. And please also know that nothing I have said here is meant or designed to disparage anyone else or their personal beliefs.

I also wish to say that I do not consider myself a spokesperson for (nor do I identify myself with) any political group or organization. I simply felt led to speak on these matters from my own personal point of view and experience.

I regret that this has turned into such a long post. Thank you for your patience with me. And I am sure you will all be relieved to know that I more or less have said all I intend to say now. I have no interest in back and forth arguments with anyone and do not intend to become involved in any sort of political debate. I know we do not all agree on these matters, but I do hope we CAN all mutually agree that we do not always HAVE to see eye to eye in order to get along.

I value your right to express your own personal opinion, and I hope you will extend the same courtesy to me.

Thank you

[silentscreen]

Ya know, President Obama is going to have to prove it to me that he's great like FDR was during the 30's. I'm not so easily won over by today's media. He has yet to prove it to me that he loves America like I do. If Bush was so bad as everyone thinks, then President Obama is going to have to be twice as good. Shouldn't be too hard for him since he's so brilliant, no? I mean, he made all these promises... Since he's so exceptional, as was explained during the election, this should be no trick for him. That means no taxes on the middle class to fund national health care for one thing.

I shouldn't, nor sould rohanaka have to explain ourselves in a free Democracy as we seem to be doing here. I've been around for a long time, and I've never seen the "big brother" atomosphere that I've seen in America of all places, during the current administration. It makes me worry for my country.

[ken123]

Big Brother was never bigger than in the Bush years, illegal wiretaps, warrantless searches,falsehoods in order to get us into war. Beck, Hannity, Limbaugh, Coulter,and the rest of " the pro American crowd " were liars then and are liars now. Isnt MsPallin a liar when she mentions " Obama's death panels ", as she did Friday night on her Facebook ? The political right is playing with fire.

[ken123]

Ya know, President Obama is going to have to prove it to me that he's great like FDR was during the 30's. I'm not so easily won over by today's media. He has yet to prove it to me that he loves America like I do. If Bush was so bad as everyone thinks, then President Obama is going to have to be twice as good. Shouldn't be too hard for him since he's so brilliant, no? I mean, he made all these promises... Since he's so exceptional, as was explained during the election, this should be no trick for him. That means no taxes on the middle class to fund national health care for one thing.

I shouldn't, nor sould rohanaka have to explain ourselves in a free Democracy as we seem to be doing here. I've been around for a long time, and I've never seen the "big brother" atomosphere that I've seen in America of all places, during the current administration. It makes me worry for my country.

Silentscreen,
How can Obama show that he loves America more than you ?

[silentscreen]

Silentscreen,
How can Obama show that he loves America more than you ?

He could stop spending money like it's going out of style, putting us into debt that that we'll be paying off for generations to come, including my son and grandchildren. While I am no Bush fan, whom the administration and everyone else loves to blame, he's already spent more money than Bush did by a long shot. In any case, we're talking about our current President.

He could give us a choice of whether we want national healthcare or not. Despite what he says now to get this legislation passed, in the past, he's made it quite clear that he wants to get rid of private insurance altogether. Employers won't be able to compete, and we'll all be on national healthcare whether we want it or not. It should be everyone's right to choose their own doctor, and treatment, not have the government mandate it.

He'll not be able to fund all his projects without raising the taxes of the middle class, which was a campaign promise that he won't be able to keep. All this "fixing" won't come without a price to pay not only in a monetary sense, but in terms of personal freedoms and beliefs. In loving my country, I don't try to thrust certain Ideologies down their throats.

These types of conversations do go round and round with no resolution though. Who ever is convinced one way will stay that way, so what's the point? I know it's good to express your opinions, but after a few posts, I think everyone knows what they are.

[Birdy]

The only reason Bush did not spend more than he did was because of who he was sleeping with...big oil, big coal, big pharmaceuticals, big food. It's going to take a lot of money to fix the damage, some of which can never be fixed, no matter what the money. Like the missing mountain tops in the Appalachians.

I am skeptical of all efforts but must remain positive - which is what I wish the right-media would do. Pot-stirring is good for America, but not if the pot-stirrers are pouring poison into the soup.

[feaito]

I've been very interested reading all your valuable points of views. While I loathe politics in general, from any country, because I'm basically skeptical about everything and I've lived under quite opposite governments: When I was born the Christian Democracy run the government, then came Socialits and Allende, then the Coup-D'Etat and Pinochet, then 20 years of Concertación Government (Christian Democracy and Socialists) and I've read and heard so many different things about all of them; there are so many view points as different people exist, but the clue in this kind of talks is respect and tolerance, because we'll never think alike. Everybody is entitled to have his or her own opinion and to express it respectfully.

And from my experience of 42 years I've learnt that fanatics, bitter people and hatemongers are everywhere, living and existing among all political parties and factions (liberals, conservatives, socialists, communists et al) some of them even run message boards, believe me! Thanks Jon for SSO!

[silentscreen]

Very well said Fernando. In stating my point of view, I wasn't trying to say that I was for one political party or the other. I mistrust Congress in general now, including Republicans. Fernando and I have both been on a message board where only the admin's point of view was allowed, so we appreciate the freedom of speech exercised here.

[feaito]

Very well said Fernando. In stating my point of view, I wasn't trying to say that I was for one political party or the other. I mistrust Congress in general now, including Republicans. Fernando and I have both been on a message board where only the admin's point of view was allowed, so we appreciate the freedom of speech exercised here.

Yes, indeed we do!

[movieman1957]

Actually I think they do have contempt for the American people. Neither Hannity, Limbaugh, etc. are journalists and what they are doing is far from news, despite what the network name is. Limbaugh himself, when asked, says he's an "entertainer". The problem with his show and Hannity's, O'Reilley's (who actually was a journalist but then left to become host of Inside Edition), etc. is that they don't come with a laugh track. At least Jon Stewart and Stephen Colbert are filmed in front of live audience.

If people watch any of these shows to get their news (and I include MSNBC), and worse, if it's there only source for their news, then, yes, they are dumb. Proof? How about the inanity that is the "birthers". The very fact that there is a name for these numbskulls proves:
1. People are a lot dumber than anyone might imagine, and
2. Limbaugh, Hannity, do have contempt for the American people. (Seriously, you don't honestly believe that THEY believe Obama isn't a citizen, do you?)

As for healthcare; conservatives seem to think that everything is fine the way it is, which, for the rich ones is likely true. But it's also true that, even with insurance, many of us are one serious illness or accident away from bancruptcy. And I'd venture to say that many of the international members of this very board would not want to change their health care coverage for ours.

I don't have any reason to doubt where Obama was born. What I can't believe was he didn't have to submit proof in the first place. How could anyone, and I mean anyone, not have to file their proof of eligibility with the Elections commission is beyond me. The fact that this is even being questioned is funny and sad at the same time. I believe it is Congress' job to confirm eligibility before the oath is administered. If they didn't then they are as much to blame as anyone. This could have all been easily out away.

I'll agree that anyone getting their news from any one source isn't being thorough. I'll especially question those who only get it from Stewart and Colbert. With the net there should be multiple outlets to learn things. And that means more than Katie Couric. If people thought Limbaugh and the others had such contempt for them I doubt they would be so popular. ANd they are. Opposing view radio stations aren't exactly lighting up the airwaves.

No one thinks the health care system is perfect but Obama has done a poor job of convincing people that he is not going to take away their choice in how to deal with this problem with their family. There has to be some reform. The answer is not scrapping the insurance industry in favor of a gov't run on. They can start with underwriting guidelines, tort reform for some malpractice premium relief. Doctors simply cannot afford, in some areas, to run a practice. Polls show too many people like and prefer what they have now. The delivery of health care is as good or better than any in the world. Every nation has its horror stories for some patients but people aren't having to wait for months to get treatment. My two friends that died last month from cancer are proof enough of that. They may not have survived but there was no stone unturned to try regardless of the cost.

One thing I will say about Congress is that they are at best unconnected. They go home and meet with people and they say things that I find hard to believe. Spector tells that crowd in Philly that they have to do this healthcare plan quickly. Really? A 1000 page bill none have read and then want to pass it quickly. That's dumb. Sen. Boxer complaining people are "out to hurt our president." Disagreement is now equated with "hurting our president." Lord knows that didn't stop them with Bush. Obama can do what he wants without any Republican help but for him to tell them to shut up and get out of the way is a little over the top. If he is not careful that same group may be one he'll have to work with somewhere along the line.

[silentscreen]

Telling them to shut up and get out of the way is more than a little over the top. It must be a job requirement to have an enormous ego to be President.