I'm curious

[charliechaplinfan]

We've been discussing the United Kingdom and how it came about on another thread, it didn't have anything to do with that thread so I've moved the discussion here. My intention in creating this thread was for anyone's curiosity about anything, so chip in with whatever puzzles you.

Nancy asked me about how and when the UK took shape, this was my answer, it got me thinking about America.

It's a brief synopsis, excuse me it's been years since I've been at school.

Wales has been governed over by English kings for approx 1000 years, since the Middle Ages.

Scotland is more complicated, there have been many battles, mostly won by the English, treachery on both sides. Scotland came to be ruled by the same King as England when their King James became King James of England too. He was the legitimate son of Mary Queen of Scots, who if she hadn't commited treason might of inherited the throne from Elizabeth herself one day. This was in 1603.

Then for a century Britain had a civil war and beheaded it's king, Oliver Cromwell ran the country as Lord Protector for 12 years. He was succeeded by Charles II who was invited back from France. Charles proved a successful king but his brother and successor James II was a Catholic who threw the country into disarray. He was overthrown by William of Orange and his wife Mary II who was James daughter but was a Protestant. They in turn were succeeded by Anne, Mary's sister.

In the meantime, James had a son, who by laws of the kingdom should have been king. He had considerable support from France and Scotland (traditional allies at this time) and both he and later his son (Bonnie Prince Charlie) both tried and failed to take the throne.

Finally in the reign of Anne there was an act that strengthened the succession. in 1801 the Act of Union was created that bound together England and Scotland.

Ireland has been pillaged by a few of our kings, James II and William of Orange but it was Cromwell who was the most brutal. Today, Northern Ireland or Ulster choses to stay within the United Kingdom whilst Eire or the Republic of Ireland is it's own country. There have been many troubles because of this over the years. Religious disagreements/ wars aren't a new thing here. I don't think I'll ever understand why violence is committed when religion is involved.

I'm curious, there's a little animosity, jealousy and wrangling in the Union. To listen to the news you wouldn't think the Scots liked the English or that the English like the Welsh. There are incidences in history that encourage prejudices. The English from the North aren't as hated as the ones from South by the Scots, Welsh or Irish. Some of this I know the reasons for but some I don't and I've incredibly simplified our history. What I want to know is does the same thing exist in America. Are there any states that don't relate happily to others for reasons of history, political, industrial relations etc (not football, baseball or else we'd be here all day I'm sure).

A few years ago I read a book by Howard Zinn called A People's History of the United States, I liked it because it told your history in order and I understood which is quite an undertaking by the author to take on such a large subject and tell it well.

I won't believe any of you if you say it is all sweetness and light over the pond.

Alison

[klondike]

He was the legitimate son of Mary Queen of Scots, who if she hadn't commited treason might of inherited the throne from Elizabeth herself one day.

Great idea for a thread, Alison!
I have a question:
As Mary Queen of Scots was never an English subject, how could she have committed treason against the English crown?

[knitwit45]

Alison, in some areas the "irritation" factor is still high, depending on which part of the country you are in, regarding the Civil War. Missouri was a "Border" state (some for, some against slavery) Kansas (next neighbor to the west) was a "Free" State. some of the bloodiest battles and skirmishes were back and forth across the state line separating the 2. I am just west of the state line, in Kansas. I grew up just EAST of the state line, in Missouri. There is still some friction, and most people don't even realize it was handed down to them from parents and grand parents, and THEY received it from their grandparents.

In 1967, I was in North Augusta, South Carolina, and an older gentleman wanted to know where I was from originally. When I said Missouri, he looked at me and said, "Which side was your family on?" It took me a couple of seconds to realize he was talking about the Civil War.

[charliechaplinfan]

That's a good question.

Mary Queen of Scots was a controversial figure. She was welcomed back from France as Queen of Scotland after her husband the Dauphin of France had died. Scotland must have had high hopes. In her second marriage she chose Lord Darnley, he was the father of James I of England, the marriage was not happy and he was murdered in a messy attempt on his life. Suspicion turned to Mary and the Scottish bishops turned against her. Mary also made a marriage to Bothwell that made her future even less secure. A confederacy of her Lords waged war against her, captured her, she abdicated in favour of her son. She did escape and fled to England. Elizabeth kept her safe at various castles in the realm for 19 years. Only when confronted with evidence of Mary's plotting against her and after much delaying and with reassurance that James would not come to his mother's aid, she was beheaded on Elizabeth's order.

I think you're right, it is a grey area, did Elizabeth have the right because she had given Mary protection all those years. I really don't know if it would stand up today in law. I guess that Elizabeth had to tough or lose her kingdom. This is shortly before the Spanish Armada. Even in England itself there were still Lords willing to otherthrow Elizabeth to return to the old faith.

Elizabeth stabilsied England's position in Europe and the world. The throne she inherited was far from secure and her realm has suffered under the persecutions of her father, brother and sister. When James I inherited the throne he inherited a much securer kingdom.

I've always wondered would Mary have outlived Elizabeth and would Elizabeth of allowed Mary to inherit?

[Birdy]

Alison,
Stereotypes, name-calling, prejudices and pre-conceived notions run amuck between borders. A regional name that some are proud of is hurled as an insult by others from a different area. The border could be a state line, a body of water, an interstate, a railroad track or a mountain. Our skirmishes are nothing compared to your history, though. Remember, we wiped out almost all the ancient history in this nation through Native American removal so our 'history' ( at least as an organized political nation) only goes back a few hundred years.

I'm really enjoying your little history lesson. English history (and Arthurian legend) used to be a hobby of mine. Too bad my memory's a sieve. Thanks for sharing.

B

[charliechaplinfan]

Nancy, that's really interesting about the state line. I guess to the old guy, it was an important question even then. Did you know how to andwer him?

Birdy, when it comes to Arthurian legend, I'm passing the buck to you

[knitwit45]

I honestly answered, "Gee, sir, I'm not sure. Our family history (Bible) was lost in a fire." Remember, this was long before internet and instant access (for a huge fee) to all your family records that are still existent. As it turns out, I don't think anyone from either side of my family fought in the war. Father's people came from England in 1890's, mother's were all farm people, too busy feeding families to fight their brothers.

[jdb1]

I find it very often rather complicated to explain to non-Americans our "one out of many" way of thinking. Our history has made us what we are, and in modern terms, our history is unique.

On the one hand, Alison, we are a surprisingly homogenized people, and as huge as this country is, there are many things that are the same everywhere. On the other hand, most of us are very aware of, and have great pride in, our "other countries," and our heritage derived from elsewhere is of supreme interest to us and is constantly celebrated. You can go just about anywhere in the US and find some kind of festival commemorating settler ancestors from other places. I think in large cities, where there is a greater mix of peoples, those people are more aware of their ethnicity, and are very interested in the ethnicity of others. In NYC, we still identify people as "that Italian guy," or "that Spanish woman" (usually meaning Latin-American, not from Spain).

And the individual states can be at times like individual countries, and the rivalries have not yet died. For example, we in New York are firmly convinced that everyone in California is nuts. (For those who may for some reason have taken the foregoing seriously: It was just an example. I don't really think such things (not too often, anyway)).

Just as anywhere else, Americans can be "tribal," and I think that kind of thinking is enclosed by state lines. Knitty -- why don't you tell Alison about Missouri being the "Show Me" state?

[charliechaplinfan]

The 'Show me State' this I have to know.

Birdy, you're right, prejudices grow up out of little but mostly through ignorance.

I love the history of my country. Nobody will ever be able to convince me that any other countries history is more colourful or interesting. I do find myself interested in the history of other countries. America is so unique, it's a country quite like no other, that's what makes it so interesting to me. What I say about prejudices growing out of ignorance is true in my experience, American history is just steeped in the differences of others but has learned to live a great deal without prejudice. Your great nation forged out of peoples from all over the globe and must have gained immeasurably from it's diversity.

I hope I don't sound too saccharine, it's not intended, it's purely interest.

[ChiO]

jdb1 said:

And the individual states can be at times like individual countries, and the rivalries have not yet died. For example, we in New York are firmly convinced that everyone in California is nuts.

I imagine that in New York, as in Illinois, the intra-state rivalry (including politically) is in many cases stronger than inter-state rivalry. For the vast majority of Chicagoans, Illinois is divided into two parts: Chicago (the city and the greater metropolitan area) and Downstate (everywhere else). Which is evidence that we're geographically challenged because that makes parts of Illinois that are north of Chicago to be Downstate. Chicago is the center of crime, corruption, wayward boys and girls, and sucker-upper of tax dollars vs. Downstate is the center of meth labs, prisons and unsophisticated, 19th century attitudes. Or so those who benefit from playing the two parts against each other would have one think.

As if it isn't bad enough that South Siders (of Chicago) root for that other Chicago baseball team, there are vast numbers of Downstaters who commit the crime against nature of actually supporting the St. Louis Cardinals ---Grrrr! (Golly, I hope Birdy isn't one of those. She seems so nice.)

[knitwit45]

Why Is Missouri Called the "Show-Me" State?

There are a number of stories and legends behind Missouri's sobriquet "Show-Me" state. The slogan is not official, but is common throughout the state and is used on Missouri license plates.

The most widely known legend attributes the phrase to Missouri's U.S. Congressman Willard Duncan Vandiver, who served in the United States House of Representatives from 1897 to 1903. While a member of the U.S. House Committee on Naval Affairs, Vandiver attended an 1899 naval banquet in Philadelphia. In a speech there, he declared, "I come from a state that raises corn and cotton and cockleburs and Democrats, and frothy eloquence neither convinces nor satisfies me. I am from Missouri. You have got to show me." Regardless of whether Vandiver coined the phrase, it is certain that his speech helped to popularize the saying.

Other versions of the "Show-Me" legend place the slogan's origin in the mining town of Leadville, Colorado. There, the phrase was first employed as a term of ridicule and reproach. A miner's strike had been in progress for some time in the mid-1890s, and a number of miners from the lead districts of southwest Missouri had been imported to take the places of the strikers. The Joplin miners were unfamiliar with Colorado mining methods and required frequent instructions. Pit bosses began saying, "That man is from Missouri. You'll have to show him."

However the slogan originated, it has since passed into a different meaning entirely, and is now used to indicate the stalwart, conservative, noncredulous character of Missourians.

Resources:
Rossiter, Phyllis. "I'm from Missouri--you'll have to show me." Rural Missouri, Volume 42, Number 3, March 1989, page 16.

Official Manual of the State of Missouri, 1979-1980, page 1486

[silentscreen]

I agree that there are preconceived notions among the States. We like to think that we've risen above that, but in truth I don't think that we have totally. Texas is a large state, so we pride ourselves on that a bit I guess. I get the idea, (though it may be false, and just a preconcieved notion on my part)that this comes across as arrogance, when in fact, Texans are generally very friendly. I've noticed a lot of differences when I've visited places like Massachusetts, where a dear friend of mine lives. The culture and history there is older, and more sophisticated. I've enjoyed those differences though. I think a lot of it depends upon the person and how open they are.

[movieman1957]

Chio mentioned about a politically divided state well, we in Maryland suffer or boast a similar situation. Maryland has 23 counties and the city of Baltimore. Three areas, Baltimore City, Prince George's County and Montgomery County have big enough populations that they usually determine the outcome of statewide elections. Whether that is good or bad depends on where you live and how you view your politics.

BTW, I thought it was a given that most of California was indeed nuts.

[bryce]

Texas is quickly, or, rather, has mostly turned into California. It's a sad state of affairs.

After living in five different cities and visiting most of the Union in my (short) life I have come to the conclusion that Americans are just god-awful people - they are, after all, mostly outcasts from other countries. City, country, rich, poor, cultured, uncultured, and all those inbetween: god-awful. Not that I think the English or French or Chinese or Australians or South Africans or Egyptians are any better. Stupid just plain is. I simply think more Americans possess more of it.

Sorry, this adds nothing to the conversation. Just an observation.

[jdb1]

Knitty, this Missouri thing is very interesting. I don't think the version you cite is wrong, but I think there's more to it. As an amateur student of folklore and word and phrase origins, I've done some reading over the years about such things, I my feeling is that both Rep. Vandiver and the pit bosses in Colorado were alluding to an already existing phrase. The idea of the Missouri frontiersman as a hard-headed skeptic was already in circulation 200 years before these other stories were recorded in print. It's likely that the phrase "Show Me" didn't really capture the American (and Missourian) imagination until Vandiver's speech in the 1890s.

Now -- if you really want to drive yourself crazy, do some research on why the people of Indiana are called "Hoosiers."

Bryce, you are not alone in your feelings about Americans. Your words echo those of my brother, who is 20 years older than you, and who has also traveled extensively and lived in various small and large places in the US. He doesn't like it much, and I think his complaints also have a note of disappointment in them. But -- we are such a big country, and there are so very many people, there is bound to be some wheat among the chaff anywhere you look.