MUSINGS, PONDERINGS, RUMINATIONS AND FANCIES

[Bronxgirl48]

I have to confess that I've never truly understood VERTIGO, much less why it's been on Top Ten lists as one of the greatest American movies. I have less of a problem with Scottie than I do with dumb needy masochistic Judy, putty in the hands of controlling men to be sure. Everyone in this story is pretty much screwed up, including Midge.

Who really makes me want to throw up is Mark Rutland in MARNIE. On their "honeymoon" he makes a promise not to touch Marnie, then forces himself on her, with sicko Hitch lovingly filming every angle of this rape.

[laffite]

I have to confess that I've never truly understood VERTIGO, much less why it's been on Top Ten lists as one of the greatest American movies. I have less of a problem with Scottie than I do with dumb needy masochistic Judy, putty in the hands of controlling men to be sure. Everyone in this story is pretty much screwed up, including Midge.

Who really makes me want to throw up is Mark Rutland in MARNIE. On their "honeymoon" he makes a promise not to touch Marnie, then forces himself on her, with sicko Hitch lovingly filming every angle of this rape.

Despite it's flaws, it does play well on first viewing (or more). It's only later when parsing that the flaws or so unabashedly noticeable. I never like it much to begin with. Say what you will about Madeleine, she could sure act. The character and the actress, but especially the character. lol/

[laffite]

...and she's fearless about jumping in the ocean without full assurance she is going to be rescued. The movie is a fraud (no one noticed it back them as films were relegated to the memory hole after first run. An so it escaped calumny.)

[Bronxgirl48]

It was very hard believing someone like Judy could pull off being Madeline, no matter how much "coaching" she had.

That jumping into the ocean bit fascinates me because when Scottie phones Elster to tell him about it, there is a pregnant pause from Elster's end, which I took to mean he didn't know the exact means Judy was going to use in order to, er, "reel" Scottie in. I'm sure Elster didn't give her those instructions...or did he?
It's so confusing...

[HoldenIsHere]

I have to confess that I've never truly understood VERTIGO, much less why it's been on Top Ten lists as one of the greatest American movies. I have less of a problem with Scottie than I do with dumb needy masochistic Judy, putty in the hands of controlling men to be sure. Everyone in this story is pretty much screwed up, including Midge.

Who really makes me want to throw up is Mark Rutland in MARNIE. On their "honeymoon" he makes a promise not to touch Marnie, then forces himself on her, with sicko Hitch lovingly filming every angle of this rape.

Well put. Everyone in VERTIGO is effed up to nth degree.
I do like the movie though.

The spousal rape scene is MARNIE is so creepy.

[HoldenIsHere]

Mandy Patinkin is hot as Avigdor in YENTL.
But he looks so much like one of my uncles that there's no fun in that for me!

[Bronxgirl48]

Ha!

[Bronxgirl48]

I like Melvyn Douglas as an actor but when he aged looked just like my Uncle Louie from Queens.

[txfilmfan]

It was very hard believing someone like Judy could pull off being Madeline, no matter how much "coaching" she had.

That jumping into the ocean bit fascinates me because when Scottie phones Elster to tell him about it, there is a pregnant pause from Elster's end, which I took to mean he didn't know the exact means Judy was going to use in order to, er, "reel" Scottie in. I'm sure Elster didn't give her those instructions...or did he?
It's so confusing...

Certainly a convoluted way to go about a murder. How did he know Scottie's acrophobia-induced vertigo would be debilitating enough to not go up those stairs? And both of them didn't count on Scottie turning into an obsessed stalker. I don't think that term was used in those days - maybe I'm wrong - but we certainly have real-life stories these days about worse cases than this, especially celebrity stalkers. This seems to be a cross between Pygmalion and a stalker story to my simple mind.

I think Dr. Drysdale (that's what I call him since the scriptwriters didn't give him a name) should have kept Scottie in the hospital a wee bit longer. Mozart wasn't cutting it. Perhaps he had a relapse after the second fall and went back? Some think he had an instant cure after Judy's fall. Did Scottie finally tell all after he figured it out, and then did they bring Elster to trial? We'll never know. There was a coda filmed (by demand of the Production Code office) where we hear on Midge's radio that Elster is being pursued by police across Europe. She turns it off when Scottie enters the apartment, and she makes a drink as he stares out the window. There's no dialogue.

Judy's got issues too. Accomplice to a murder, and then falling victim to a stalker, and then suffering from a form of Stockholm Syndrome. Was her fall an accident, or was it suicide?

Midge just needed to move on, poor thing. Another obsessed victim caught up in a romantic rectangle with Scottie, Madeleine and Judy.

I think critics today like it because they can analyze it to death, and come up with a million different themes and interpretations. I always thought the pacing was too plodding and got bogged down in details, but that's probably why the cineasts love it. That, and the cinematography, score (which I do like, quite a lot), and the overly romantic portrayal of San Francisco.

The film plot closely follows the original French novel upon which it was based. The biggest differences are that the original plan didn't work, because the Scottie character fled the scene of the murder, causing the Elster character to panic and flee (he got his reward in a WWII-era air raid, though) and that the Scottie character in the book strangles the Judy character after she confesses to the plot, and he turns himself in to the police. I don't think Scottie's obsession with turning Judy back into Madeleine was present either (I haven't read the book - only have read summaries of the plot).

Here's the coda, which was wisely dropped from the final film.

[Bronxgirl48]

Wow, I never knew about that coda, txfilmfan! What a great post, thank you. Raises more (important) questions! Not only the ones you mentioned, but Madeline's car supposedly parked at the hotel but which desk clerk Ellen Corby refutes. Was she paid to say that?

For some reason I always enjoy the senior sales clerk: "You certainly do know what you want, sir".

And I always try to figure out just where the bathroom is in Midge's apartment.

I lived in San Francisco in the early 1970's and there was nothing even remotely romantic about it. Or mysterious.

[txfilmfan]

Wow, I never knew about that coda, txfilmfan! What a great post, thank you. Raises more (important) questions! Not only the ones you mentioned, but Madeline's car supposedly parked at the hotel but which desk clerk Ellen Corby refutes. Was she paid to say that?

For some reason I always enjoy the senior sales clerk: "You certainly do know what you want, sir".

And I always try to figure out just where the bathroom is in Midge's apartment.

I lived in San Francisco in the early 1970's and there was nothing even remotely romantic about it. Or mysterious.

That sequence with Corby's desk clerk has always confused me.

And what high-end ladies dress salon will still have last year's clothes in stock? I'd think they'd offload those to other stores. After all, they can't charge full price for it, and those types of places don't have sales to get inventory off the books.

[Andree]

I hadn't seen Rebecca in a long time until it was on TCM a while back. It's a rather
silly though fairly enjoyable as entertaining fluff. And suave George Sanders chowing
down on a chicken leg. Both the leading men of Rebecca and Marnie are kind
of jackasses. Larry goes to pieces at the least little thing and Sean is just a humorless
snobbish wise guy. I noticed a few minor similarities to Citizen Kane: Manderley/
Xanadu, a scene with a long dinner table, though it's more significant in Kane, and at
the end Rebecca's pillow goes up in flames just like Rosebud.

Vertigo is pretty good, though it might take more than one viewing to figure out
what is going on. The first part where Scotty is following Madeleine is so slow and
serene. Elster is one of my favorite Hitchcock villains, so bland and unassuming and
he even gets away with it, at least in the U.S. version.

[Fedya]

I hadn't seen Rebecca in a long time until it was on TCM a while back. It's a rather
silly though fairly enjoyable as entertaining fluff. And suave George Sanders chowing
down on a chicken leg. Both the leading men of Rebecca and Marnie are kind
of jackasses. Larry goes to pieces at the least little thing and Sean is just a humorless
snobbish wise guy. I noticed a few minor similarities to Citizen Kane

Wait until you see Fritz Lang's low-budget version, Secret Beyond the Door.

[Hibi]

It was very hard believing someone like Judy could pull off being Madeline, no matter how much "coaching" she had.

That jumping into the ocean bit fascinates me because when Scottie phones Elster to tell him about it, there is a pregnant pause from Elster's end, which I took to mean he didn't know the exact means Judy was going to use in order to, er, "reel" Scottie in. I'm sure Elster didn't give her those instructions...or did he?
It's so confusing...

Certainly a convoluted way to go about a murder. How did he know Scottie's acrophobia-induced vertigo would be debilitating enough to not go up those stairs? And both of them didn't count on Scottie turning into an obsessed stalker. I don't think that term was used in those days - maybe I'm wrong - but we certainly have real-life stories these days about worse cases than this, especially celebrity stalkers. This seems to be a cross between Pygmalion and a stalker story to my simple mind.

I think Dr. Drysdale (that's what I call him since the scriptwriters didn't give him a name) should have kept Scottie in the hospital a wee bit longer. Mozart wasn't cutting it. Perhaps he had a relapse after the second fall and went back? Some think he had an instant cure after Judy's fall. Did Scottie finally tell all after he figured it out, and then did they bring Elster to trial? We'll never know. There was a coda filmed (by demand of the Production Code office) where we hear on Midge's radio that Elster is being pursued by police across Europe. She turns it off when Scottie enters the apartment, and she makes a drink as he stares out the window. There's no dialogue.

Judy's got issues too. Accomplice to a murder, and then falling victim to a stalker, and then suffering from a form of Stockholm Syndrome. Was her fall an accident, or was it suicide?

Midge just needed to move on, poor thing. Another obsessed victim caught up in a romantic rectangle with Scottie, Madeleine and Judy.

I think critics today like it because they can analyze it to death, and come up with a million different themes and interpretations. I always thought the pacing was too plodding and got bogged down in details, but that's probably why the cineasts love it. That, and the cinematography, score (which I do like, quite a lot), and the overly romantic portrayal of San Francisco.

The film plot closely follows the original French novel upon which it was based. The biggest differences are that the original plan didn't work, because the Scottie character fled the scene of the murder, causing the Elster character to panic and flee (he got his reward in a WWII-era air raid, though) and that the Scottie character in the book strangles the Judy character after she confesses to the plot, and he turns himself in to the police. I don't think Scottie's obsession with turning Judy back into Madeleine was present either (I haven't read the book - only have read summaries of the plot).

Here's the coda, which was wisely dropped from the final film.

Thanks for posting that coda. I'd heard of it but never saw it. Glad they weren't forced to use it. The ending would not have been as effective. Vertigo is one of those "go along for the ride" films. The more you watch it, the more flaws and plot holes you discover. Who would ever think up such and involved and time consuming plot to murder your wife? Wouldn't a simple fall down the stairs be just as effective? Then leave yourself open to more blackmail from Judy who winds up staying in Frisco. WHY would she stay there after all that? So much of the plot depends on Scotty acting a certain way, etc. Despite all its flaws, I still like the film. The whole thing has a hypnotic dreamlike quality. That long sequence of Scotty following Madeline with almost no dialogue like a silent film. Judy was a good little actress too! Who could pull all that off?

For me the film's biggest flaw is revealing who Judy is midway. I think the film would've been more effective not revealing that till the end. I know Hitchcock vacillated over whether to include that scene right till the release date.

[Hibi]

Wow, I never knew about that coda, txfilmfan! What a great post, thank you. Raises more (important) questions! Not only the ones you mentioned, but Madeline's car supposedly parked at the hotel but which desk clerk Ellen Corby refutes. Was she paid to say that?

For some reason I always enjoy the senior sales clerk: "You certainly do know what you want, sir".

And I always try to figure out just where the bathroom is in Midge's apartment.

I lived in San Francisco in the early 1970's and there was nothing even remotely romantic about it. Or mysterious.

That sequence with Corby's desk clerk has always confused me.

And what high-end ladies dress salon will still have last year's clothes in stock? I'd think they'd offload those to other stores. After all, they can't charge full price for it, and those types of places don't have sales to get inventory off the books.

Yes, I've never understood that Ellen Corby sequence and it's never explained. Apparently she was paid off to say that, I assume.